Retort balance, hopefully last time

[Nelphine]

I'm not sure. +2 to hit still makes them 25% better than swordsmen who have an alchemists guild.

Even against someone with 7 armor, you're going to do damage, particularly with 6 figures. Probably do enough to average killing a figure of halberdiers. The halberdiers in return should also kill a figure. Once the wolves lose a figure it's harder to kill a figure; once the halberdiers lose 2 figures, they have a hard time killing a figure. 

So yeah I'd expect 2 weakened werewolves to still kill the halberdiers.

So weaken should work on small stacks (less than 6 werewolves), if the enemy has city walls and multiple halberdiers and some ranged units.

I think that's a pretty big ask. I had 6 werewolves by what, turn 20? No, probably turn 25. The might have halberdiers by then, but they'll still rely a LOT on swordsmen. (On lunatic expecting the majority of ai cities to have an alchemists guild and city walls and a fighters guild might be reasonable by turn 40 - on any lower difficulty I don't think it would be.)

That being said, I can understand werewolves being used against AI, particularly on arcanus. It's the treasure hunting I'm not finding, because they are too similar to sprites. Yes they can do some things sprites can't - but they also can't do some things sprites can.

I also don't think black sleep would help at all though. It's less than 1000 power to research and summon a full stack of 9 werewolves. There's no reason to use smaller stacks except on the weakest targets.

[Seravy]

Werewolves being an early conquest unit, I don't think they should be stopped on turn 20. They are the unit designed to let you conquer the first wizard - most counters to it come as early uncommon for this reason.
What should be stopped early, is the ability to conquer using 1-3 units of them instead of a larger stack. As long as the player can't get away with splitting them up and fight in multiple directions at once while also making them hold cities and beat large armies, basically treating all 4 enemy wizards as the "first", we are good. I think weakness should be able to achieve that and black sleep wouldn't be any better at it.
Later on the werewolf used will be able to have Blood Lust, making both sleep and weakness no longer relevant (weakness still halves the damage output but since it was doubled, it's much less of a big deal. Still, better than the sleep which is entirely unavailable due to granted immunity) - so only the first 50-60 turns matter, where the design goal is to let them conquer - but require reasonably sized stacks to do so.

So based on your reply, it seems to work as intended now.
Unless those early uncommons fail to come into play in time, or slow/stop the conquest, but that has no relevance for the death immunity discussion.

One thing I noticed in the posted game report is Resist Magic which blocks pretty much all the intended counters, letting the wolves stay effective much longer than intended. Of course, to be able to have that, one has to play 8 death+2 sorcery at the very least (unless getting lucky), limiting the player to only 2 retorts and no 9th/10th book for discounts and research bonus. So it has a price, but it might still be too powerful - Resist Magic is an extremely effective spell. But that belongs to the Sorcery realm thread - don't hesitate to post there if you think it's the case.

[Nelphine]

I'm not sure. How long does it take to summon 558 skill worth of werewolves in the early game? 17 turns? That means by, oh, turn 50, you can have multiple stacks of 9 werewolves, and that's assuming you didn't get a really early node.

[Seravy]

How long does it take to summon 558 skill worth of werewolves in the early game? 17 turns?

About that much. So 17 turns for 1 stack of 6 wolves. But you want 9. And this is the summoning time - you also needed ~20 turns to research the spell. It also requires being able to raise skill and provide mana crystals, as well as not casting another spell. Probably not from nodes - while researching the spell you have no mp to summon to clear nodes. Normal units can do it ofc but they'll be slow at that, not much faster than using the wolves themselves.
So I'd say you have your first full stack of 9 around turn 50, second like turn 70.
In theory. In practice you have a few of them left behind in various cities to defend them, because you have to. I generally need like 15 of them to have a 9 stack, unless I conquered nothing at all yet when I had fewer, but I most likely did.

[Bahgtru]

Of course you want 9 wolves... But you don't wait for that. When you have 3 wolves you go for the node with phantom beasts or for roaming AI troops. With 5-6 you can hit most cities bar the fortress. That's why black sleep matters much more than weakness: the fewer wolves you're using, the more the freezing of a single one of them matters. Weakness just gives a bit more hp to the enemy units comparatively.  You don't really need  a stack of 9 until later - maybe the fortress fight. And no, for this phase you don't defend basically. Anyway, this goes off topic. And no, walls do nothing: you can choose which unit attacks, so first you use the clean wolves, then you slip in with the weakened one once the gate is free.

Werewolves being an early conquest unit, I don't think they should be stopped on turn 20. They are the unit designed to let you conquer the first wizard - most counters to it come as early uncommon for this reason.

Then why the difference between sorcery and death - why should the wolves be stopped by confusion if they are meant to be unstoppable? But I believe that you don't really mean that. BTW resist magic came into play later (AI #2) because of exorcism, it's not a snow-ball kind of issue, as even if it's there it doesn't completely block black sleep - and it makes the wolves cost more that's enough to account for that.

You keep saying weakness = black sleep but that's just not true. Two weakened wolves beat 2 halberdiers, or are very close, and the human only attacks with appropriate force.. Weakness just reduces the force a bit, black sleep changes the numbers completely and is more random, making attacks more risky, forcing you to have more overwhelming force and thus slowing down the snowball.
The point of removing death immunity is that it slows down the snowball a bit. Not by a lot - just by the cost of having to research and cast on each of your wolves bloodlust. That's not as cheap a price as you think. Every wolf costs almost 50% more and the research is also quite a steep price in terms of time to market.

So in the end: there's a problem with WW death immunity evidenced by pawning the game at lunatic, what are we going to do about it?

[Nelphine]

How do 2 weakened werewolves best 2 halberdiers with alchemy guarding city walls?

And there's lots of things that pwn lunatic. Doesn't mean we need to fix them necessarily.

[Seravy]

And no, for this phase you don't defend basically.

That's a pretty serious statement there. If that works it means the core design is not working. (AI having enough roaming units that you have to defend, unless you can afford killing them all which also bogs you down in an endless whack-a-mole situation)
I would let it pass if it was about normal difficulty, but on lunatic this shouldn't ever be the case. We should investigate this - I never get away with not defending my cities, and Sapher splits up stacks and kills all enemies one at a time (which is exactly what weakness and confusion and naga poison etc should counter) which explains why he can afford doing that. (also he at least builds large amounts of swordsmen in those cities which aren't the best garrison but combined with good spells (life/chaos buffs) they are capable of stopping some attacks)

why should the wolves be stopped by confusion if they are meant to be unstoppable?

They aren't. The AI can cast it once, maybe twice. So each battle you lose one or two wolves but win the battle. So you can keep conquering - but it'll cost you, and this will slow it down.
However it does eliminate the possibility of attacking the sorcery wizard with fewer than 4 wolves.

Weakness just reduces the force a bit, black sleep changes the numbers completely

Because halving two units is completely different from eliminating one. Oh wait. If I have two units that deal no damage, I'm in a worse situation than if I have one but it deals full damage.

So in the end: there's a problem with WW death immunity evidenced by pawning the game at lunatic, what are we going to do about it?

Nothing. We don't have options anyway, and one, reasonable, win is not grounds for nerfing a unit.
Look at the graph you posted. You are equal to three AI wizards, killed one. In 1408. That's a pretty good situation for Lunatic and almost sure a win, but it's not the kind of steamrolling that requires immediate action. It might be slightly too good, or might not, but you can't judge that on a single game. For that, you should be showing me something like Sapher's games when he already killed all 4 wizards in 1406 - that sort of thing should never, ever happen.

[Nelphine]

How long does it take to summon 558 skill worth of werewolves in the early game? 17 turns?

About that much. So 17 turns for 1 stack of 6 wolves.  *snip*
So I'd say you have your first full stack of 9 around turn 50, second like turn 70.
In theory. In practice you have a few of them left behind in various cities to defend them, because you have to. I generally need like 15 of them to have a 9 stack, unless I conquered nothing at all yet when I had fewer, but I most likely did.

No. 558 is 9 wolves. Specialist + Spellweaver + 8 books. So, 2 full stacks of 9 by turn 50.
And you don't leave defense most of the time. (Yes this works. This is how I've always played, 8 spearmen garrisons. I've been doing that for years.) That's the whole point. You swing your multiple full stacks out, and sweep up all the incoming units while you conquer.  It's early enough that most of your opponents attacks are coming from one given direction, so this doesn't slow you down.  This is probably one of the major reasons why early rush works - the AI do NOT have enough random units that they can attack you from all directions yet.
2 stacks means by turn 50, you're going after 2 opponents.

[Seravy]

And you don't leave defense most of the time. (Yes this works. This is how I've always played, 8 spearmen garrisons. I've been doing that for years.)

Then we should be talking about this and what to do against it. It shouldn't work.

(unless by no defense you mean 1-2 good units like werewolves. But 2 spearmen should not qualify and should not work.)

You swing your multiple full stacks out, and sweep up all the incoming units while you conquer.

Yeah but this is exactly what you can't do with nerfed wolves. You can't split the stack up to that extent. Almost every nerf we did recently is trying to prevent that. So how is it still working then?

No. 558 is 9 wolves. Specialist + Spellweaver + 8 books. So, 2 full stacks of 9 by turn 50.

Well if you include spellweaver ofc they are 1/3 cheaper. You know I'm trying to balance things around generic use, not a specialized build. Obviously if you spend 2 extra picks on getting 50% more wolves then you will get 50% more wolves. That's kinda the point of making that pick and the price is not having 2 other retorts or books. You could also pick Sage Master+Halflings to make the research part 10 turns shorter etc.
If this does break wolves, we should prevent the combination from working. Not a fan of it but moving Lycanthropy to "summoning spells" would do that if it ends up being necessary - but first we need to be sure the strategy is fairly balanced at the baseline. (Now that the wolf doesn't keep the original weapon effect, the only strong reason to keep it an enchantment is Divine Order. Well, I guess being able to use "normal unit only" buffs is another but does anyone even do that? Wolves are plenty strong without flame blade or holy weapon...holy armor maybe? I still rather summon more wolves...)

[Nelphine]

Two things: 
I'm not all that concerned about werewolves myself. I do believe those who are expert in their use can do crazy things with them and I'm ok with that. My life bezerkers still work fine too, for me.

The defense things seems more important.
My goal with 2 stacks of werewolves, is to not split them up a lot. At most down to groups of 3 wolves, but preferably no less than 4. At all times they stay within one turn of each other to reform into a full stack if necessary. That lets me break into 4-6 stacks to kill individual enemies, or reform into full stacks of 9 to take on stacks of 3-5 units. I generally never have to fight doomstacks due to starting so early. I never have to fight enemy stacks at my cities so I typically leave the minimum number of spearmen in each city to cancel unrest.

Later wars can change this of course, but by having 3 doomstacks of my own, if I can control the start of the war, I start by taking out any full enemy doomstacks. I then follow the tactics described above, and again, I never have to defend my core cities.

The only time this doesn't work is if I get declared war on when I'm not ready and a doomstack can get into my core cities. 

But even in that case, if my empire is big enough, it doesn't matter. I lose a few cities, bring a doomstack home, clear out the AI, and then follow the tactics as above.

Note later in the game, as my doomstacks are stronger, AI wandering stacks can be correspondingly stronger. For instance, once I've got 9 gorgons, I can use 4-5 of them to clean out full stacks of 9 city units.