Barbarian race discussion

[Seravy]

Why would I want to spend hundreds (at common) to thousands (at uncommon) researching summons when I'm intending to use city troops for all serious tasks [and despite how you play, garrisons are meaningless for me].

So then don't spend on it? There are 8 research slots. If any of the spells you got don't fit the strategy you're playing, don't click on that spell, it's that simple. By the time you run out of space and all 8 have useless spells, you're already where you can get those unwanted spells done in a single turn, assuming you haven't yet found them in treasure or trades.
I don't think I even clicked on researching a spell I wasn't planning to use, especially not a summon, when it required more than 2 turns to complete, and by then it's simply not a relevant amount.
It's not like you're actually getting all the summoning spells anyway, unless you're playing mono with 10 books  in which case you're getting a bonus to research and found spells and trades will clear the unwanted spells out of your list as you can't find or trade for anything else.

btw picking Runemaster or Chaneller significantly lowers the chance of getting summoning spells.
Also even if you did not use those summoning spells, you aren't spending more on RP than other realms. You might argue you're getting less total value out of it, as some spells aren't useful, but this would be saying every spell is the same value. They are not, and I rather have 2 spells I never use plus Fire Storm, than 3 average spells I do use but not all that often. Besides, even Life has spells you might never cast in a game. If I play aggro, I won't use Altar of Peace and almost never Sanctify (maybe on that 10 gold cost hero but nothing else), likely won't ever need Resurrection (not letting my heroes die), probably won't summon much Unicorns if any (you only need them in very special situations) and in half the games, won't cast Exorcise even once. With that, Life is already looking worse for me than any other realm for what's probably the most critical tier. 

So my conclusion is this is not a problem that exists, every realm and strategy has spells you don't want to research and you don't need to do so if you don't want to...but more importantly this has absolutely nothing to do with how barbarians compare to our design goals or other races.
...if I try to interpret it, you are basically saying you never used any normal unit, unless playing Life - but we are trying to discuss using normal units without Life (or specific retort choices) and how various races compare to barbarians at doing that. No wonder I feel I'm not getting much useful information out of this.

...tl;dr : 
1. anyone else who actually PLAYED barbarians without life and other races without life as well, relying on normal units, could tell what they think, are barbarian units the best? Because they have to be as the race is bottom tier in all other areas so that's the very least necessary to be able to call the race at least playable for non-Life. (and preferably non-Warlord and or non-Alchemy...)
2. The other thing we should be talking about, if the answer is no to the above then do we want to have one race that's an exception to our normal design and only works with specific retorts or realms included? (Life/Alchemy/Warlord, doesn't really matter which of these the problem is you need something...)
3. And finally, if we also say no for the second question then what can we do to change that and make barbarians work with more realms and without specific retorts?

[zitro1987]

A high-hp, 1-2 figure, fairly mobile unit from armorer's guild (with +1 or +2 to hit) would go well with other realms. Life mega-buff strategies would probably not be affected and would still prefer berserkers.

Also, early units are terrible unbuffed.

[Seravy]

By the way, I forgot...

4. The current design of Barbarians is strong military but no magic economy. Not only does that go against the fundamental design goal of the mod, making magic the most important element of the game, but also overlaps with two other races, Gnolls and Dwarves, both of which pretty much do the same thing except, less extreme.
So...maybe we want a completely new design instead?

We could make them the "no gold" or the "no research" race, I think we have neither currently. Gnolls are the "no power", Klackons are "no religion", Lizardmen are kinda "no production" although only missing the miner's guild, and Nomads cover "no food".

[Nelphine]

I'd be happy with no research. Gold is too important in the first 30 turns, as per klackons not having a marketplace.

[Nelphine]

A high-hp, 1-2 figure, fairly mobile unit from armorer's guild (with +1 or +2 to hit) would go well with other realms. Life mega-buff strategies would probably not be affected and would still prefer berserkers.

Also, early units are terrible unbuffed.

I like this.

[Nelphine]

Alternatively, make their spearmen melee 3, thrown 2, armor 2.

Remove swordsmen and make bezerkers a smithy unit, reduce their melee to 5, HP to 2, and cost 50.

Then add a 1-2 figure, move 4, high hp unit at the fighters guild level.

Add magic market.

Now they have the best early units, don't have the cost of anarmorers guild.

[zitro1987]

Or both the berserker and 1-2 figure unit at the fighter's guild level.

*Berserkers would be unchanged at 100 cost
or
*Buffed berserkers costing 140-160 with buffs not impacting strategic rating (immolation?)

*the 1-2 figure unit at somewhere around 160-200 cost

With this, barbarians becomes the unique race that can have a top tier unit with a mid-tier building

If this sounds a bit crazy (160-200cost unit with fighter's guild) remember that draconians in original game had powerful doom drakes with just a stables

Note: we probably shouldn't alter the current berserker strategies by demoting them to a smithy unit. We also need a new unit - previous discussions for a 100-ish cost unit did not go anywhere, so the proposal now is an expensive fighter's guild unit - unique to just barbarians.

[zitro1987]

Barbarian Race overhaul proposal:

*Pop Growth: +70 (20 less than current)
*Output Growth: 30% (same)
Forbidden Buildings: Builder Hall, Library, Fantastic Stables, Armorer's Guild
Standard Units: no more spearmen
Specials: Settlers cost 100
Unit Modifiers:
-1 resistance
-2 thrown in swordsmen, -3 thrown in cavalry
-pathfinding
**-Swordsmen do not require smithy**
**-25% unit cost reduction (they are barbarians, doesn't pay much to recruit)**


Berserkers: 90 cost (10 less)

New unit (war chief? cyclops?)
*requires fighter's guild and coliseum
*Costs 180/3upk
*2 figures
*9 melee
*no thrown
*+2 to hit
*3 armor
*5(+1) resistance
*15 hp
*4 move
*+1 resistance to all
*+1 vision
*replaces spearmen
(note) - Its low armor, low figures, high to-hit and already-high speed does not allow the white 'holy armor/holy weapon/endurance' strategy to shine.

Economy Summary: with fewer population growth but access to more buildings, Barbarians have a more balanced economy potential for later in the game. The lack of builder hall and library is very limiting however.

Military Summary:
*With low-tier cost reductions, you can amass numerous troops and manage losses.
*Berserkers remain a powerhouse for life/alchemy wizards, with cost reduced by 10% to balance out the lower pop growth
*Non-white, non-alchemy wizards can benefit from a high-tier (but not requiring armorer's) unit.

[Seravy]

I don't see the benefits. The new unit is less cost effective than berserkers - it costs 80% more (now 100%) but doesn't have 80% more hit points. It has the same armor so the same amount of losses can be expected too.
I also don't see what makes these better than the high end units other races offer. Simply put, low armor makes the unit unusable - anything that's less durable per cost of production than a klackon halberdier or orc horde is meaningless. But we are going the low figure route so probably should compare to a Stag Beetle - 20 hp and 7 defense for ~120 production (they cost 160 but klackons have 50% more production from workers).
The new unit has to be strictly better than that otherwise I could pick klackons, have a good unit and a decent economy in one plus the fastest growth rare in the entire game.

[Bahgtru]

Speed 4? At that point make them mounted and have speed 5, first strike plus the axes?