Civs in RtR: Thread 2

[Krill]

If the above is accepted as generally true (and I'm not talking specifics, I'm not claiming it holds for everything), I have a follow up assertion:

The civs that need balancing, altering, improving, call it what you will, need to be balanced up to a specific power level that is predefined, eg to the level of the Zulu, whilst also improved in interestingness up to a certain, predefined level, and not have everything toned down in both areas so all civs become bland.

The problem with this assertion, is that if it is accepted, most civs would need altering in some way.

[superjm]

The Civ 4 standard of one UU and one UB to differentiate civs (not counting starting techs) is inherently limited and doesn't allow for a whole lot of differentiation. There's a reason most overhaul mods of this game tend to differentiate civs in more ways than the standard game. Not that I'm saying RtR needs to become FFH2 or even Ryse and Fall or something like that, but given these limitations there isn't a whole lot that can make all these different civs powerful without being "boring", at least not without a complete overhaul of most civs as you said.

There might be a way though to approach things from a different angle though. What about balancing under the assumption that Unrestricted Leaders stays off, so that instead of a civ having to stand on its own merits independent of its leaders you can actually design leaders and civs to cover for each other's weakness and create unique synergies. Of course this would limit your choices in multiplayer games, so maybe that's not worth looking at, just throwing the idea out there.

[Old Harry]

We could do with some data. Anyone got time to work out which civs were picked or rejected in RtR games so far? (I'd exclude third-choice civs in the pb38-style picks since that isn't a choice. And perhaps weight the recent games more heavily.)

[Krill]

Finally, the historical spreadsheet has actual value other than mere humiliation.

[Krill]

I don't think the PBEMs are fair to count in this current data set but I'll try and do that one after.

Here is the data for all of the RtR PB games where players have been able to choose from the full pool of leaders and civs. PBs 5, 8, 13, 15 and 18 were either random choices with a degree of control and reroll, or from a much reduced list (PB15).

Below are the results. Remember, there are only 11 such games in total.

America 2
Arabia 1
Aztecs 4
Babylon 1
Byzantine 1
Carthage 5
Celts 2
China 7
Dutch 3
Egypt 3
England 2
Ethiopia 1
France 1
Germany 2
Greek 1
HRE 4
Inca 8
India 4
Japan 0
Khmer 1
Korea 2
Mali 3
Maya 1
Mongolia 5
Native America 0
Ottoman 4
Persia 4
Portugal 3
Rome 3
Russia 3
Spain 0
Sumeria 4
Vikings 4
Zulu 8

[superdeath]

I have two main ideas when it comes to civs and how to make them all balanced/more interesting.

Idea 1: Give some civs two UU's or two UB's instead of 1 of each. ( just throwing out ideas, may not be super balanced )
Idea 2:
America- UU Colonist a unique settler with 3 moves? UB Armory barracks replacement with 10% faster production of units?
Germany- UU could be a unique rifleman with 10-20% reduced collateral damage received or starts with Blitz? UB Factory with "units made here start with blitz?"
Byzantine- UU bring back the old 12str UU, but without Immune to first strike? ( i cant remember if that was how it was ) UB add 10% culture to the current UB?
England- UU Redcoat with Musket build cost? or, make the Redcoat a musketman replacement with no draft penalty? UB im fine with how it currently is so no comment.
Ethiopia- UU Musket with drill 1,2,3? UB is a Colosseum replacement with double the hammers required to build, but gives all units produced in the city mobility 1?
France- UU stays the same, UB ( if able , is simply all buildings produce an extra 1 culture per turn? ) if not, a Grocer replacement with +2 happy? As the french are known for some good food..
Greek- UU Phalanx with 50% less collateral damage taken ( keeps the 100% defense vs chariot ) UB is a Colosseum replacement with +1 happy per unit in city?
Japan- UU Maceman with 50% city defense, drill 4. UB is ( if possible, all cities start with 50% cultural/defense ) If not, University with +1 food per tile?
Khmer- UU Ballista Elephant with its ability working when attacking cities as well. UB Aqueduct with +1 food per tile. ( or 50% reduced cost Aqueduct with +10% gold )
Korea- UU Catapult with 50% reduced cost. UB University with +2 happy, 25% reduced cost with copper.
Maya- UU stays the same. UB ball court with 10% production boost?
Native America- UU Dog soldier with 25% city attack. UB- Teepee a granary replacement with 50% reduced cost. Or Teepee a granary replacement with 75% stored food?
Spain- UU Knight replacement with 20% city attack? UB- Castle with +2 trade routes Doesnt obsolete until Scientific Method.

I think that covers all the meh/not zulu class civs.

[Old Harry]

Thanks Krill! You are right - it is a bit of a small sample size - I'd include the civs picked in the first two rounds of PB38 since that kinda counts as a choice. I'm interested to see what the PBEM data shows as well.

But taking the data at face value the most popular are Inca, Zulu, China, Carthage, Mongolia. That seems about right (maybe we played a lot of water maps for Carthage to be here?) The next chunk include Vikings, Aztecs, Ottoman, Sumeria, Persia and India, which all seem strong enough to me. HRE might be a statistical fluke.

The bottom of the table is more surprising, only one outing for Ethiopia and France seems odd. The others down there are reasonable though - we could jazz up Arabia, Babylon, Byzantine, Greek, Khmer, Maya, Japan, Native America and Spain I suppose. I'm a bit dubious about making more changes though since that then limits the potential (and in any case ever-shrinking) player pool. Though I guess that horse disappeared over the horizon some time ago...

[Krill]

I don't buy that list though.

India got picked 4 times, Colosseum civs now have a good base and are worth building, and Zulu was missed once.

The PBEMs will take me a while to get to so someone else might need to make the spreadsheet

Japan, Spain and NA need rebuilding. India as well: I think 3 picks were by newbies.

[Krill]

Thanks Krill! You are right - it is a bit of a small sample size - I'd include the civs picked in the first two rounds of PB38 since that kinda counts as a choice. I'm interested to see what the PBEM data shows as well.

But taking the data at face value the most popular are Inca, Zulu, China, Carthage, Mongolia. That seems about right (maybe we played a lot of water maps for Carthage to be here?) The next chunk include Vikings, Aztecs, Ottoman, Sumeria, Persia and India, which all seem strong enough to me. HRE might be a statistical fluke.

The bottom of the table is more surprising, only one outing for Ethiopia and France seems odd. The others down there are reasonable though - we could jazz up Arabia, Babylon, Byzantine, Greek, Khmer, Maya, Japan, Native America and Spain I suppose. I'm a bit dubious about making more changes though since that then limits the potential (and in any case ever-shrinking) player pool. Though I guess that horse disappeared over the horizon some time ago...

Shock: it's an even smaller sample size for PBEMs: I can only find 4 games that used snakepick, and two of them are pre-PB5 so I would question the value of this data. It is in the above linked spreadsheet though, in another tab. I think we pushed out something like 30 PBEMs between the start of 2012 and the end of 2013, which was the period between PB5 starting and the set up phase for PB18, and we continued to play base BtS in PBEMs because the consensus view was the balance level wasn't needed for small games.

[Krill]

superdeath, going to be honest here, which generally means you might think I'm being a dick. I'm sorry if that's the case.

America- UU Colonist a unique settler with 3 moves? UB Armory barracks replacement with 10% faster production of units?

3 move settler is essentially a blank unit, it has no interesting capabilities, except to make it a bitch to balance start locations if someone can run away even faster to fuck up the starts. +10% hammers is surprisingly little in terms of power, and can actually lead to a loss of hammers due to rounding. Again, it also has no interesting factors.

Germany- UU could be a unique rifleman with 10-20% reduced collateral damage received or starts with Blitz? UB Factory with "units made here start with blitz?"

Blitz on a one move unit is hilarious, not able to code for reduced collateral short of giving free Drill 2 through 4. UB factory is still too late, and if players can't use something, it is essentially blank.

Byzantine- UU bring back the old 12str UU, but without Immune to first strike? ( i cant remember if that was how it was ) UB add 10% culture to the current UB?

S12 knights are uncounterable, and that is a Bad Thing™. Again, UB is boring and does nothing.

England- UU Redcoat with Musket build cost? or, make the Redcoat a musketman replacement with no draft penalty? UB im fine with how it currently is so no comment.

Yay, England can 1 pop draft rifles again. and everyone else has to pay double. Unable to code for no draft penalty either. Obviously not a smart decision, it's strength with no interesting or fun features.

Ethiopia- UU Musket with drill 1,2,3? UB is a Colosseum replacement with double the hammers required to build, but gives all units produced in the city mobility 1?

At this point, I question your understanding of the combat system: Mobility does nothing for 1 move units, and has very limited value for 2 movers (basically enables a slight maneuverability edge when fighting with HA and knights in unclaimed, unimproved areas, or hilly claimed areas). Why would this be fun to use? And doubling cost makes it a malus, which is unjustified. Now if you meant Morale, that gives +1 moves to units built in the city...No. Just NO. Movement points are the most toxic thing imaginable: 2 mover swords with CR3? Backed up with 2 mover collateral?

Jesus wept that is terrifying.

The UU change is actually fine, but it doesn't work well with PRO.

France- UU stays the same, UB ( if able , is simply all buildings produce an extra 1 culture per turn? ) if not, a Grocer replacement with +2 happy? As the french are known for some good food..

Culture thing may actually be codeable, but I'm not sure why it would have value to players. I'm not even sure what sort of effect it would have on a culture victory attempt? 2 turns off the finish date? More likely 1 turn? The free spec would give more culture TBH, and gives greater flexibility.

Greek- UU Phalanx with 50% less collateral damage taken ( keeps the 100% defense vs chariot ) UB is a Colosseum replacement with +1 happy per unit in city?

Same problem as above, can't code collateral reduction except through promotions. Happy change is also uncodeable.

Japan- UU Maceman with 50% city defense, drill 4. UB is ( if possible, all cities start with 50% cultural/defense ) If not, University with +1 food per tile?

A UB that gives +1 food per tile? You need to go and read PB26, it's a really good example of why free yields of any type are a really bad idea, it breaks all the scaling in the game.

Also city defense bonuses are themselves boring and unfun: Players need to be proactive, and play, and that means interacting with other players. Shoving units in cities to defend stops that. It just makes players either disengage and play builder, or build up huge stacks of collateral and wade in, slowly and painfully.

Khmer- UU Ballista Elephant with its ability working when attacking cities as well. UB Aqueduct with +1 food per tile. ( or 50% reduced cost Aqueduct with +10% gold )

UU is uncodeable, and also make is uncontrable. Single or paired BEs with a single axe would be impossible to kill at anything close to an even trade, and there would be no where to keep mounted units when facing Khmer, again forcing players to not interact, and build stacks (which then leads to the Khmer player going for guerilla warfare and bleeding a player dry). UB is broken.

Korea- UU Catapult with 50% reduced cost. UB University with +2 happy, 25% reduced cost with copper.

Again, why pick this? It's not fun, it doesn't do anything, it's like playing a blank civ.

Native America- UU Dog soldier with 25% city attack. UB- Teepee a granary replacement with 50% reduced cost. Or Teepee a granary replacement with 75% stored food?

Granarys saving more food is no different than generating more for free, it's an insane amount of power and absolutely no flavour, no interest, just build the granary UB and grow faster than anyone else can do.

The UU is fucked though, doesn't matter what you do with it until you hit about +100% city attack, and then you reach a point where the game becomes whack-a-mole: defenders just have to kill incoming stacks before they reach cities and that's it, not other way to stop them.

Spain- UU Knight replacement with 20% city attack? UB- Castle with +2 trade routes Doesnt obsolete until Scientific Method

City attack bonuses on faster movers is very difficulty to deal with (Impi are only dealt with by the fact axes exist, higher strength and greater percentage bonus against them). There is no such counter against mounted units.

Doubling up the trade route is something I considered on the Castle, but it's probably better to make it obsolete at Corp, when another free trade route comes in.