February 5th, 2019, 10:42
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For me it's for "realism" - the wind walker grants wind walking meaning the units still "walk". Ships or cloud islands carry them. That makes it quite intuitive.
Pls don't miss this comment:
Wouldn't that prevent units from moving between two ships and then continuing? That's different from chain shipping as it spends a movement point to go between the two ships. I'd find that too restrictive, part of winning in lunatic is logistics.
BTW have you noticed that if you pair up two windwalkers, one with 3 mp one with 1, you can't give the stack an order of distance 3 but you can do that one step at a time? No idea if that's intended or what.
February 5th, 2019, 11:01
(This post was last modified: February 5th, 2019, 11:01 by Seravy.)
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Yes, I saw that but that's still chain shipping except less optimal because 8 stacks can't have two ships on the same tile. Yes, this is one of those problems that result in higher than intended win rates on lunatic, that's why it needs to be fixed.
Multiple windwalkers : I'm aware of that problem but it has no "easy" way to fix and I don't remember if I had no time or there was no space for a "difficult" one. Either way it's not a priority for now.
February 5th, 2019, 15:33
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Wait if moving on another ship is forbidden then so is forbidden moving after shipping, I don't see it otherwise.
It's clearly different from having the first ship move over another ship and then moving the unused ship away with all the cargo. That spends no movement for an unload/load. Forcing a load/unload makes the stack spend movement.
Don't make the game annoying...
How about this: no multiple transports in the same tile?
February 5th, 2019, 17:50
(This post was last modified: February 5th, 2019, 17:51 by Nelphine.)
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Right, I think baghtru means, for instance, using two ships as a 'bridge' to another continent. So neither shop moves, and the land unit spends 3 movement to get from one continent to the next, which I agree with baghtru, absolutely should be allowed.
February 5th, 2019, 18:42
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(February 5th, 2019, 17:50)Nelphine Wrote: Right, I think baghtru means, for instance, using two ships as a 'bridge' to another continent. So neither shop moves, and the land unit spends 3 movement to get from one continent to the next, which I agree with baghtru, absolutely should be allowed.
Bridges are okay. The unit wasn't moving together with a ship so it wouldn't be affected. I don't think he means that though but I'm unsure.
Anyway, if it's only the unit moving, nothing changes no matter how many ships they step on. If the unit is carried by a ship, even for a single tile, it isn't allowed to move together with any other ship for the rest of the turn.
So you can do moving 3 tiles with your magicians if there are two tiles of ocean with 2 ships on them connecting the land.
If you move the trireme and the magician together for any number of tiles, after that the magician can still move as far as it want to on its own (including moving onto other ships) but it cannot move together with any ships unless the original ship is also moving with them.
February 6th, 2019, 04:27
(This post was last modified: February 6th, 2019, 04:29 by Bahgtru.)
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Yeah no, I mean moving with two ships while spending a movement point to go from one to the other. That's different from chain shipping which is making the ship do it all and having troops be able to cross the entire map.
Why don't you simply reset the ship counter when a stack moves without a ship? That'd sort this.
PS while working on ships, it'd be nice to get 0 move units selected when you click on a stack to not have to select all of them when you move a ship with 1 0 move unit.
February 6th, 2019, 07:14
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I'm confused. How is moving 4 on one warship, then spending 1 land movement to move onto the next warship, then moving 4, then spending 1 land to move to the third warship, then moving 4, then spending your final land to attack a city not chain shipping?
And if you only have 2 move, you 'only' move 10?
You absolutely shouldn't be allowed to do that.
February 6th, 2019, 07:23
(This post was last modified: February 6th, 2019, 07:25 by Nelphine.)
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I'm confused. How is moving 4 on one warship, then spending 1 land movement to move onto the next warship, then moving 4, then spending 1 land to move to the third warship, then moving 4, then spending your final land to attack a city not chain shipping?
And if you only have 2 move, you 'only' move 10?
You absolutely shouldn't be allowed to do that.
We agreed moving full land speed plus one full ship is already trending to absurd. 2 full ships plus full land is absurd, and moving infinitely isn't significantly more absurd.
I also don't think anyone who has played for 20 years will be that impacted. They will have significant experience with windwalkers via draconian airships anyway, and already be accustomed to the other method of transportation.
The only time they wouldn't have that experience is of they were actively trying to abuse the greater distance of ship transportation, in which case it becomes an abuse anyway. If they didn't think the distance was worth abusing, then draconian airships are amazinf and worth pursuing every game, so they'd be used to them.
February 6th, 2019, 10:01
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If you have strong troops that move 4 and warships then you could also have airships, and you've already won. Besides, warships and airships don't have so much of a difference in requirements/time to availability. At that point you combine the two of them and you go back to traversing the map each turn: windwalkers override transport but when combined only transports spend movement anyway, beating this solution.
Now tune - as usual - to the early game. Logistics play a role when your units move 2 and you just have triremes. Then, having the possibility to use 2 ships rather than 1 matters and it doesn't break the game - the most you could do is load/new ship then new ship/unload on the following turn. I don't know where it was agreed that 1ship+land ship is absurd, I think you're projecting your opinion on the others there... If it is absurd then prevent it, but that makes the game more annoying. If it is not absurd then allow it, but then you have to allow moving among ships as well, for coherence, and because preventing it is just annoying.
Basically what I'm saying is: to use strong logistics you need to have the skill to prepare ships in the correct position. This takes thinking ahead. Once you do this you discover chain shipping, which should be addressed, but don't throw away the skilful play with the bath water.
February 6th, 2019, 10:38
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(February 6th, 2019, 07:14)Nelphine Wrote: I'm confused. How is moving 4 on one warship, then spending 1 land movement to move onto the next warship, then moving 4, then spending 1 land to move to the third warship, then moving 4, then spending your final land to attack a city not chain shipping?
And if you only have 2 move, you 'only' move 10?
You absolutely shouldn't be allowed to do that.
People tend to think that way to justify abuse in their own mind, I'm not surprised.
We are trying to nerf strong early logistics. That's the whole point. Unfortunately a ship carrying a windwalker is a valid concern, even this feature can't possibly stop that because the windwalker is still moving. But...we can fix that. We only need to add the rule : the previous transport has to have nonzero moves left to count as actually moving with the stack.
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