It's Chevalier's Thread and He Can Do What He Wants To

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Let's get a report in, eh? 

I think I've got three here to update you on - turn pace is slow, believe me, one turn every two days or so.

Turns 152 - 155

With no need to worry about era points now, I go ahead and recruit the Great Admiral. The timing is perfect - Japper will take the next GA on the turn the Renaissance starts, meaning the Archduke will need to wait for the Industrial admiral! Couldn't have planned that better:




The American campaign draws to a close with the capture of Rowain's final coastal city, New Orleans:




I briefly try to hold the city - loyalty pressure is so low that I can get away with that - but when a pair of American knights show up next turn and redline the city, I am forced to burn it down to keep it from falling back into American hands. With the taking of the city, Rowain is effectively finished (not that he wasn't already, of course) - he must either train a new (expensive) settler, or build a harbor from one of his inland cities. The settler will be just as vulnerable as all his previous cities were, and Rowain has no navy to defend any colony with, and it'll take years to build ships by hand from a fresh plant. A harbor would be mildly more threatening, but it's also easy to take - just sail in and pillage. I'll need to keep a small squadron to keep an eye on things here, make sure those knights don't try to swim to Arabia, but on the whole America's ability to influence the wider world is neutered. 

The lesson here: You need coastal cities or at the very least harbors on naval maps! I deliberately moved and settled my capital on the coast so I could build ships early, and Escobar is the premier shipyard of Arabia today. Most of my cities are vulnerable to an enemy who wins command of the sea, yes, in a way that Washington and Charleston aren't, but what good are those cities to Rowain now? If you lose control of the sea, your game is over anyway, safe capital or no safe capital. And by having coastal cities I make it much less likely that I'll ever lose that command of the sea. 

About that:




This was my initial disposition, blocking most of the strait and keeping the Dutch on the far side. The plan here is not to attack through a small choke into overwhelming firepower, but instead to use the terrain here to try and hold it with a smaller number of ships, freeing most of my navy for offensive action elsewhere - ie the northern front. 

I have a few scouts peeking into Dutch harbors along the coast. The main goal in these turns is, of course, to locate the main Dutch fleet and prepare a force to destroy it. Archduke has nothing really on his own coast:




But notice his own scout near Davis. He's preparing a counterstrike of his own. I edge my new Admiral out to scout:




Ah. 6 Sevens and 4 caravels, a formidable squadron. I think I need to devote most of my fleet to crushing this detachment while hoping I don't weaken myself too much in the south. It's a tough balancing act. I'll try and assemble out of Archduke's sight, but he knows he's been spotted so I doubt I'll have surprise. 

The next turn, the Renaissance begins:




Archduke managed a Dark Age, which means Letters of Marque are a go. : My best chance is to win quickly - beat the fleet and take down his coastal cities asap. Then work my way over towards his core and hit him before he can get many Privateers online. I also lose a bunch of science from the end of my golden age - I'm leading in number of beakers, but Ironclads are about five more turns off than projected, which means we'll open the campaign without them. In a way, that simplifies things - I can concentrate on aggression to start the war, and not upgrades. 

I'm assuming, of course, that I'll get first strike, because of turn order. I...could be wrong. Archduke accepted my offer, meaning it expires at the end of his turn, then on the fresh rollover I get to attack, right? That's how it works? 

I start making dispositions to meet the Dutch fleet:




Note the chariot accompanying Archduke's forces. This fleet's objective is clearly Davis and Morales. I'm training up two HCs of my own, to upgrade to Mamluks for era points and to take any landbound cities within range of the coast myself. 

Here's the scores and overview. Scores can fit on one screen since I don't care about Rowain anymore:

[Old Harry]

Does the peace treaty just end at the start of the turn, meaning whoever is first in turn order always gets first strike? I remember some complaints about that in previous games...

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Does the peace treaty just end at the start of the turn, meaning whoever is first in turn order always gets first strike? I remember some complaints about that in previous games...

Yeah, I better test this in SP before the treaty expires in 4 turns...Although interestingly, there's a renew alliance option! When you have few enough turns remaining, you can re-up without waiting for it to expire. If multiplayer games lasted a bit longer that'd be interesting.

I wonder if Archduke offers or if he's just eager to have this out? I feel like time favors him over me since he's got so many young cities now. He needs time for that investment to pay off - if the game is decided in 15 turns, though, then they did him no  good.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

I'll do a proper update later, but 

a)GAs apparently don't work the way I thought, we're still on Renaissance Admirals, so everyone gets one! Joy. 
b)Rowain got Newton and Archduke got Galileo, because of course I'd get stuck with the lamest Great Scientist. So much for the science advantage I built up. 
c)Japper signed a DoF with the Archduke, because why the hell would he want to take advantage of the Dutch concentrating literally all their naval power on the opposite side of the map? 

You do everything you can within your own power, but all you can do is all you can do. But every possible advantage I was counting on for the coming fight has gone up in smoke the last 3 turns. 



I hate this game sometimes.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Okay, consider this our final war warning.

I tested in SP and hotseat, and I'm like 98% that I will get first strike - Archduke is the one who offered the alliance, so it expires on my turn, and I move first in turn order, so that's two bites at the apple. I don't think Archduke knows that, however. 

I also made a mistake and offered Rowain peace. 

Why was this a mistake?

Well, if I were him, I'd accept the offer - then use the ten turns of enforced peace to float my entire army across to Arabia, where my knights might do some damage. Ten turns later I declare war and wreck everything I can. Rowain, though, doesn't think this way and instead just opted to flip me the bird:




He demands all my gold, resources, and cities in return for peace. Well, fair enough. I chuckle and close the window. 

Archduke continues to pile ships on both fronts. I'm actually going to be badly outnumbered - is he chopping them out to get them so fast? I had to chop my island bare earlier. :/ First strike is my only real chance, and it's a bit of a slim one. 




The patch, for reasons known only to Firaxis, decided to make the game hideous:




He slipped ships past my blockade in the south, so I pull back. I have vague intentions to either concentrate all my ships, or else try and bloody the nose of this southern force as best I can. I wish I had one unified fleet now, but on the bright side the Dutch are split, too. 

In the north, I have walls, an encampment, and potentially a Mamluk against two potential Knights. This is a sideshow - I expected archduke to concentrate his army here and easily capture the city, but he's missed the opportunity. 




Meanwhile, he forward deploys most of his fleet off Davis's coast. If I get first strike - as I think I shall - I have 11 Frigates and 2 Caravels against 7 Sevens (heh) and 2 Caravels, which will enable me to deliver a crushing blow to the northern arm. I also have 2 Caravels and 2 Frigates en route from the north, due to arrive about 3 turns after the battle starts. The Dutch certainly have similar reinforcements. If Archduke gets first strike, well, then the game is probably over. 

In the south, here's the set up:




Ten and 1 against 7 and 3 (Frigates/Sevens and Caravels, respectively). Much closer odds. :/ 

In general, my strategy is simple: Go for the 7s first, leave the weaker Caravels for later. Use my Caravels to shield my fleet and for final strikes - the Ironclads are coming, so either I preserve my striking power in Frigates or I have Caravels available to upgrade. Obviously focus fire and go for complete kills. I made a hard decision and upgraded 3 Quads to Frigates on the frontline *without* Professional Army in place - because the civics swap is going to come too late and I need the firepower now, not two turns from now. Plus, the three Quads that missed out on upgrades due to increased cost were all on the American front anyway. Fingers crossed. 

Here's an overview of the homeland. What a garbage new interface.

[Sullla]

I like the new minimap in general, and especially the full-screen version that they added in the new expansion. Some of the civs look pretty good with these more vibrant colors. But other civs like Arabia are just HIDEOUS, like so ugly that it makes me wonder how they could release a commercial production that looks that bad. Just compare Chevalier's first two screenshots from that last post; it looks like someone vomited all over Arabia in the second one. Sheesh.

Good luck next turn! You are the only one doing any reporting at all so we are reliant on you for details on what's happening.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

SulllaI like the new minimap in general, and especially the full-screen version that they added in the new expansion. Some of the civs look pretty good with these more vibrant colors. But other civs like Arabia are just HIDEOUS, like so ugly that it makes me wonder how they could release a commercial production that looks that bad. Just compare Chevalier's first two screenshots from that last post; it looks like someone vomited all over Arabia in the second one. Sheesh.

Good luck next turn! You are the only one doing any reporting at all so we are reliant on you for details on what's happening.

Thanks for the well-wishes - I wish I could promise a win, but I'm a bit gloomy about my prospects. Archduke has the better ships, and in almost as great numbers as my own. We're both about equally concentrated - I think the one saving grace is I am in between his two fleets. And, of course, I get first strike.

And so it comes to this:




Look, it sucks that this game comes down to who gets first strike - and that naval games in particular frequently come down to this. There's a reason Archduke is lamenting it in the balance thread - I get the chance to remove as many ships of his as I can from the board and there's nothing he can do about it. The Dutch have been in full retreat for the last two turns and I've been in hot pursuit, and it's my one real chance in this war. I get first strike because Archduke is the one who proposed the alliance - if you think back two months to when I proposed a military alliance, he countered by demanding Perez. And so that means it expires on my turn. In the end, Archduke's greed for a minor outlying city might just be the difference. 

As much as it sucks, though, a)I'm not going to pass it up, that'd be dumb, and b)what's the better way to handle this? Whenever you hardcode peace between two players, at some point that peace has to expire. And in a sequential turn-based game, that means that someone is going to get the chance to attack before the other guy does. If you make it the person offering the alliance who gets first strike, that just flips the problem - now the OTHER player can sail up with impunity and park himself outside his "ally's" territory, safe from counterattack. 

Spitballing, I can think of two ways:

1)Randomize on which player's turn the alliance ends via a coinflip or something. IE it lasts 30 turns guaranteed, and then after that whose turn it expires on is 50/50. That way, neither side can plan on having first strike, and has to play cautiously lest they lose a good chunk of their fleet. It keeps people from being as cheeky as my deployment above is. But randomness is not really a good mechanic.

2)Maybe some complicated house rule that you can only attack with units in your own territory for the first few turns after a peace? It gives the defender an edge and forces the would-be attacker to keep his distance for a turn or two. But that's really unintuitive and weird and can lead to some crazy situations. 

So maybe the imperfect status quo is best.





Anyway, above are my final dispositions before I strike. Now, Archduke is a much better tactician than I am. He's fought a dozen multiplayer wars, I've (unsuccessfully) fought about 1.5. And he has the better units. But he DID make a mistake in his deployments - he left his Great Admiral uncovered. I think he's expecting me to declare war, and then have to shoot my way through his wall of ships. But, well, I'm not going to do that. As long as we're neutral, I can sail THROUGH Dutch ships. And he left a 1-tile gap next to the GA. Literally a single tile in his whole formation - and it's right next to his Admiral. It was a minor error, but I'm going to exploit it. I park my caravel right next to the Admiral while still at peace...then declare war. 




In a single, bloodless victory, the Dutch admiral is forced to teleport far, far away from the battlefield. Instantly every Dutch ship in the area loses 5 strength, and I've neutered the advantage his Sevens have over my Frigates. Now let's go to work. 

I'm trying to keep three principles in mind here:

1)Go for complete kills. Do not leave wounded units to promote and continue to annoy me. Concentrate fire and reduce his forces as quickly as possible.
2)The Sevens are the biggest threat. Any available ship that can target a Seven, does so, except where this conflicts with the First Law.
3)Promotions are precious. Knock out the promoted Sevens first. 

I'm also carefully clustering my frigates to make maximum use of support bonuses and the like before opening fire. 

The firing begins by targeting the Sevens in the south, especially that juicy two-promotion ship. With my GA and the support bonus, each Seven requires two shots to finish. In so doing, I earn a whopping 5 era points with one battle:




With that done, the other Frigates lunge forward. We blast away at interior Sevens, and when those targets run out, the rearmost ships and my caravels go for Archduke’s two forward caravels and the hopelessly fleeing galley:




Both are brought down. Archduke loses a total of 5 ships in the south - 2 Sevens, 2 Caravels, and the Galley. I would have liked more Sevens sunk, but I couldn’t get at them. Not all my ships came into action, either - two Frigates were just out of range.

Here in the north, I estimate I will lose 5 ships in reply on the Dutch’s turn. Archduke can’t flee - my taking of the admiral saw to that. So he’ll turn around and fight. He should be just as effective against me as I was against him - Sevens are the equal of a GA Frigate. My hope is that he won’t be able to reach and sink the Frigate with my GA on it, as I’ll be teleported back to Davis and out of the fight for a few turns. However, I’ll start next turn nearly as strong as I was this turn, and in range to hopefully sink as many as 4 more Sevens. I’ll take even less damage that turn, and should be able to mop up the battle on the third day.

Two more Caravels and a Frigate will arrive around then, as well as my southern fleet if I need it.

Here in the south, scouting reveals a Seven and a Caravel in each city+lake combo:




I send one Frigate to harass the caravel in the lake, while forcing the Seven to leave the city and be sunk if he wants to shoot back. Archduke COULD sink this Frigate, but it’d cost him a Seven and a Caravel to do it, and that’s a trade I’ll take.

I concentrate the rest of my fleet at Tortuga. 100 turns after the city’s foundation and my aborted raid on the city, it’s time to burn the city. Again, thinking about every possibel bonus, I gather all the ships I can. Crusade is boosting me here:




I’ve run the numbers and Archduke CAN’T take out a Frigate here. I will burn the city and trap whichever ship doesn’t go down with the city in the lake. Cost him maintenance until he is forced to delete it, ha ha ha.

Final situation in the north:




His southern fleet is re-emerging through the straits, but will be unable to either engage my own fleet or my southern cities next turn. By the time it’s in position to threaten anything, the battles of Tortuga and Tyrion Strait will be over and I can shift surviving units to join my southern fleet and meet it. We’ll sink that fleet, finish our business in the Arabian sea, and then push for the Dutch core and victory. 

Dutch Strength at the start of the war: 1988
Arabian Strength: 1910

2 Sevens = 120
2 Caravels: 100
1 galley: 25

Estimated Dutch Strength, end of turn: 1743

He still has the greater army, so I think I have the margin of naval superiority now.

Fingers crossed.

[Grotsnot]

Good stuff! Very interested in this war getting under way. That bit with the GA was brilliant

I didn't quite follow one section - is that little picket line near Batavia in trouble? Or did they back off or get reinforcements or something

Look, it sucks that this game comes down to who gets first strike - and that naval games in particular frequently come down to this. There's a reason Archduke is lamenting it in the balance thread - I get the chance to remove as many ships of his as I can from the board and there's nothing he can do about it. The Dutch have been in full retreat for the last two turns and I've been in hot pursuit, and it's my one real chance in this war. I get first strike because Archduke is the one who proposed the alliance - if you think back two months to when I proposed a military alliance, he countered by demanding Perez. And so that means it expires on my turn. In the end, Archduke's greed for a minor outlying city might just be the difference.

I dunno, "you propose the deal, you're signing up to eat the first strike" sounds pretty fair to me.

Sorry I haven't posted here in a while; been a terrible dedlurker. Anything that'd be useful to help with or just get out the pom-poms?

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Those 3 frigates were the last stragglers from the American campaign (the ones that stayed to finish off New Orleans), they're posted just out of Archduke's caravel's range north of Barataria bay. I didn't include a shot of dropping them back, sorry. I could have sunk his Caravel, obviously, but probably would have lost all three frigates to the Sevens coming up. I'm going to drop back and connect up with Southern Fleet before bloodying those guys' nose if they keep chasing. If he goes for my coast instead, I'll come up on his rear while he batters down Cain and Moose's defenses.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Any tactical advice or any advice is appreciated! I'll also respond to requests for information, I made an EoT save.

I also just like company, I get lonely in here. ._.