TBS moves 1UPT

[The Black Sword]

Covering a few eventful turns:


This was the situation around Voro just as I reached Square Rigging. I had pulled my troops back from the Roman front to try cover my Quadriremes if England wanted to engage early. I left 1 Quad in Voro and 3 Quads in the inslets on the line 1S of Voro. I also upgraded the archers as I had just swapped back into Professional Army. Things looked pretty dicey for a few turns, but I managed to look scary enough that England never attacked. Next turn I would upgrade 4 Frigates and seize control of the seas.


My Western Fleet on the upgrade turn. 2 Quads waiting for upgrade gold, but heading East since they can upgrade in Kandy's culture. You can also see the heavy gpt drop of the upgrades. Meanwhile


Rome got himself to muskets and upgraded them, while my units were out of position defending my quads. My tech is great, but I needed land units to defend Rome and sea units to defend England and it wasn't quite good enough to get both. I got a boost from the patch, giving both my walls an extra 50hp, but I was still scrambling to get units in place. I faith bought the Renaissance GG(was really expensive, the turn before the oracle, something like 200faith for the last 8gpp), hoping to intimidate him into not attacking but it didn't work. This ruins my plan to get a GG to go with my Cossacks, but at this stage I was more worried about making it to Cossacks.



I turn the tables on England and start to hunt down his fleet. I was afraid he could run away, IIRC his quads are faster than my frigates, due to RND + GA bonuses. But I caught and sank 3 this turn, I think that little peninsula blocked his retreat. I was now feeling better about my chances at sea and decided the 2 Frigates by Tula would be better off going to help with the problem that was Rome.



Not the best tooltip location there ... His muskets are scary, look at all those bonuses! I don't want to waste any units piecemeal defending the districts so I just let them fall as I assemble my defenses. My circumnav galley finally made it home to be upgraded to a caravel and trigger the inspiration on Exploration too, which lets me revolt into Theocracy and faith buy units next turn.

So Turn 120 rolls around and ... I was too distracted to remember to take many pictures.

I wanted to revolt to Theocracy, which allowed me to pull a double civic swap. First I got myself into Sack(+100% pillage), the wonder card, the upgrade card and Bastions(+5 city strength). I had set up to pillage a harbour by Vilnus and look at this haul:


Evidently the patch has changed some quantities to do with pillaging. This funds my last few upgrades, I think I have 2 quads that are not in territory to be upgraded(I didn't know I'd get so much gold!) but I can get out of the upgrade card. I also realised that Sack + pillaging English harbours will make me more money than Conscription(-1gpt maintenance per unit), so I stick with it in Theocracy.

Rome had finally broken my districts, bringing him into range of my Bastion upgraded cities. My 2 Frigates also engaged and by leaving a Knight and a Sword in the open I managed to kill 1 Musket and 1 Crossbow. Those Muskets take a lot of killing, even from Frigates. Meanwhile I faith bought a pair of Knights, since I'm building crossbows and finally got the rest of my army back in position.

The current turn:


He killed the Knight and Sword, but he had to leave a unit in the open to kill the sword, which I was counting on. It took my 2 Frigate shots, 2 GG powered Crossbows and a GG powered Knight to kill that already injured musket, but I managed to pick him off. Those buggers are tough. I've got such a numerical advantage in the area now that I expect him just to retreat back to Neptune.

Meanwhile the Naval skirmishing with CMF goes great, his options are very limited.


His Quads are indeed getting away but his expensive Caravel was actually too slow.   I think it was upgraded from a galley pre-RND and isn't affected by the GA so it is only movement 5. After I had weakened it with Frigates, he suicided on the injured quad in the picture(or Kandy then finished it). I'm continuing to move along the coast to burn his harbours, he should get access to Frigates in 1-2 more turns and then we may have to be more cautious.

By Manticore, I had left a Frigate to pillage his harbour. He blocked me with his Caravel, but I'd deliberately left a second Frigate close enough to help and they sunk it. He should have just left the Caravel in port tbh, his harbour will still get pillaged, he just delayed a turn.

Finally in the Eastern sea:

I don't think he knew about my second Frigate in the area, but still I think engaging 2 Caravels vs Frigate + Caravel is a bad move, especially when you are not hitting the Frigate first. I killed his northern caravel with the Frigates, healed my own with a Terracotta powered upgrade and ZoC'ed his 2nd Caravel so it can't escape. Tbh, this move made me think that CMF might have checked out.

Other stuff:

They still haven't gotten overflow right. Surely someone on the current team has played civ4 before? Right now if you complete a unit with a modifier and a bunch of overflow you are going to lose most if not all of the overflow. This incentivises micro-managing to not complete units with a bunch of overflow. The civ4 system of dividing the overflow by the modifier does not encourage such micro-managing(as well as simply making more sense).

New graphics look nice.

I considered diverting to Muskets when Rome attacked but decided it was too far away. Something like 13t to Muskets or 17t to Cossacks, figured I'd have to deal with the invasion with what I had and go for the earlier Cossack time.

I was afraid when my Barracks and Encampment got pillaged by Astrakhan I wouldn't be able to complete the Terracotta Army, but that was not the case. It turns out Terracotta is looking less important than I thought, but it's a nice bonus. 

Rebuild cost of the districts seems to be their original cost btw, only 76h for the Astra one(put it down very early to try scare the original legion rush) and something like 100h for the Moscow one(built at a discount).

Theocracy doesn't give a 15% discount on Great people purchases like I expected. TBH, I don't think I'll need either a GG or GA, things look quite rosy from here. I'll still probably spend my faith on great people and get into Merchant Republic for the 2 trade routes soon.

No sign of an Arabian evacuation to inflict occupation penalties on Greece.   Can't really blame someone for not wanting to play out turns like that but it has such a drastic effect on the cost-effectiveness of an invasion. Though right now war looks worthwhile just for the pillage numbers ...

I also declared Friendship with Rowain in the hopes of an alliance and which is one of the upcoming inspirations. Can't hurt to try.

I can't keep my City State bonuses, Greece suzerained Lisbon out from under me, already lost Seoul to Rome. I guess if you're leading then its better to go tall with your envoys instead of wide.

[Cornflakes]

They still haven't gotten overflow right. Surely someone on the current team has played civ4 before? Right now if you complete a unit with a modifier and a bunch of overflow you are going to lose most if not all of the overflow. This incentivises micro-managing to not complete units with a bunch of overflow. The civ4 system of dividing the overflow by the modifier does not encourage such micro-managing(as well as simply making more sense).

Any more specific info on what you are seeing with the overflow?

[The Black Sword]

I tested a chop putting a frigate from 115/280 +101*2h to end at 317/280. I got 0 overflow instead of the 18 I would expect from the civ 4 mechanic. I found somewhere online saying that any chop bonus is subtracted from overflow(to a minimum of 0). Here the chop bonus was 101h, which is greater than the 36h overflow so I get nothing. My test seems consistent with this explanation.

I still need to test for non-chop overflow as well, though I think there's a decent chance it follows the same behaviour.

[suboptimal]

Production with bonuses seems to be best understood/explained as having a "base" part and the "bonus" part. The way they re-did production and overflow is to apply the base quantity first, check for completion, then apply the bonus amount. Only the base production will overflow. When a build is completed all unused bonus production is lost, regardless if it applies to the next build.

The example from the CivFanantics discussion, producing an Archer with Agoge and chopping for a base of 30 :

1) Production currently 35/60. Chop yields 30 + 15 bonus. Archer completes with 5 overflow (used 25/30 base)
2) Production currently 50/60. Chop yields 30 + 15 bonus. Archer completes with 20 overflow (used 10/30 base)
3) Production currently 25/60. Chop yields 30 + 15 bonus. Archer completes with no overflow (only bonus production remains and is lost)
4) Production currently 10/60. Chop yields 30 + 15 bonus. Archer now at 55/60.

Thread: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/i...ed.642113/

[The Black Sword]

That thread is interesting.

Sounds like it applies to normal builds too, not just chops, I was afraid of that.

There also seems to be a claim that the overflow lost due to this method will apply to the next build of the item but I didn't see any proof. Will have to test that myself.

I really hate having to waste time managing overflow. 

[The Black Sword]

The same overflow mechanic does seem to apply to normal builds. 

The lost overflow does not seem to apply to the next time you queue up a similar item.

Some other questions:

Why couldn't I offer an alliance to Rowain, is there some extra condition I'm missing? GG btw, thanks for stepping in and subbing.

Siege units(Ram/Tower) say they only affect melee units. Do they mean melee class units or simply units who do not have ranged strikes? More simply, will they help Cossacks?

In return, pictures and blood:


Been sizing up a pillaging run at Neptune for a couple of turns, I finally pulled the trigger. Rome left a Crossbow on the hill SW of the city, I killed it with a pair of Frigates, then I pillaged the commercial hub with the Knight for 500g. Hoping to pillage the harbour next turn for another 500g and pull out. I'll be very happy with a trade of Knight for Crossbow+1k gold.

Btw, if he ventures out to get more kills, my double promoted, GG-powered crossbows have a S57 ranged strike. 

I'll also be switching to Merchant Republic next turn and will need to decide whether to spend any of my faith on units or save it for great people. The question is essentially will Rome attack again before Cossacks, if not I don't really need more units.



England finally reached Frigates and I killed my first one(it was NW of Medusa). The Medusa and Beowulf RNDs are his last two and they could potentially be harvested next turn for another 1k gold(just as I get out of the Sack civic). Need to be careful about advancing, particularly in the East, now that he has some capacity to strike back.

The primary aim is to completely cut England off at sea, so he won't be able to sneak a settler out and inflict the occupation penalty on me. I should be able to start picking off some of the coast cities too though, the sword will be in range of Sphinx in 2t. England has access to neither crossbows nor knights atm, so theoretically there is no need to wait for Cossacks. But I don't really feel comfortable committing the troops away from the Roman front while he has a tech advantage over me. Maybe I'm being too cautious, but I feel like I have a strong position and I don't need to take risks.

That said, with Arabia fallen the entire world is allied together in a war against me. And each individual empire has more cities than my Russia. Better crack some heads fast!

[suboptimal]

IIRC, in order to declare an alliance with another Civ under vanilla rules you need to be in a DoF and both of you need to have unlocked Civil Service.

Regarding support units (rams/towers) what the civilopedia says is not what the units do. They will/should affect the attacks of all units regardless of their attack type or unit class (see my failed naval assault on Geneva with a siege engine & frigates in PBEM 10 - the frigates ignored the city's walls). I do not believe this has been corrected by a patch, either.

[The Black Sword]

Thanks, that makes sense, I don't think Arabia ever reached Civil Service.

My pillaging went even better than I expected, he shot my frigate instead of picking up the knight kill. I think City Shot + Crossbow + Musket(can attack first so he doesn't end outside the city) would have been enough, but maybe I had stacked enough defensive bonuses on the knight.



I pulled back out of range of retaliation and the following turn pillaged his nets to heal my frigate. Rome has pulled all supporting units back from the city. It looks like he's giving up the neck and will defend where my frigates can't help. Maybe I have enough to take the city, but I'd need to get some siege along anyway, I'm happy just waiting for Cossacks.

In the Southern Sea I consolidated for a turn to get a fleet together, now that I have opposing frigates to worry about. Then I advanced:


Not sure why he's left me a bunch of target dummies. Maybe the 2 on the right are a trap, with a bunch of frigates waiting behind, but the two on the left really make no sense. I'm very worried about the other 2 funnelling money to upgrade all these quads, so I'll take the 4 kills. I finished in a tight formation with my double-promoted caravel in front to absorb shots, he did indeed see one frigate, but I have 6 promoted ships in the area, I don't think he could have gotten enough to challenge that yet.

My eastern navy pulled back towards Vilnus, where they will pillage the nets to heal. I don't want them to get overwhelmed by a larger English force, so they won't advance until the Southern fleet manages to engage.



Meanwhile, we're picking off the English Coastal cities. I could have taken Sphinx this turn, but I've decided to delay 2 turns so that I can put down one more discounted harbor in Nizhniy. That's worth over 100h while the city outputs very little due to the occupation penalty and lack of good tiles. I should also consider pillaging these improvements. Weak though the English army should be though, I'm a little apprehensive about advancing on land before Cossacks.

[The Black Sword]

Haven't been able to find the English Fleet and it was stressing me out, he finally attacked me this turn:


Been advancing slowly to let my stragglers catch up. He took out 2 of my Frigates and then I took down 3 of his in retaliation:

He had 600 power at the start of his turn, so I feel confident he can't have another fleet out there somewhere. I can move around more freely and complete my blockade of his coast. Can't let any English settler escape the upcoming genocide!

On land:


I'm going to have to delay Military Science to be honest. Need more time to build enough horsemen to spend this gold on. I had it timed well enough but there was a lot of pillage-beakers lying around Yeltsin. Also nice to see a fair number of choppables left on the land, Al got a similar gift from Greece. He's on 16 cities to my 8, but he's still 20bpt/cpt behind me. Not sure what his hammer count is like, but mine's pretty good for 8 cities, they're all mature working all the mines they can. I'll probably invade Rome simultaneously as I get the Cossacks, shouldn't need too many to finish England. Great People options:



I considered buying the Merchant for the Eureka on Mercantilism, that's 300 culture and the earlier civic swap would be quite useful. I decided the GG, GA were more game-changing though. The next great person is going to skip to 420 points, so getting this one locks everyone else out for a while. GA is looking not so important now, so I'll probably go for the GG first. I'll put a stop to England's GA points generation soon anyway, so we can always come back for it. Hard to see either of the other two trying to challenge me at sea when I have such a big fleet built already though.

I'm also due to get Newton just before Greece I think, but he's not too important, so if Al wants to steal him from me I won't mind.

[The Black Sword]

The English fleet has been wiped out over the course of a couple of turns. We're sitting 1t off Cossacks in tech, but we're going to wait 4t so that we have 18 horses to upgrade. 

I'll have a small group of 3-4 Frigates take down the walls in Vilnus while we're waiting. It has rebuilt the harbor, and we're back in the Sack civic, so let's get another 500g there too. I'll probably leave 6 Cossacks to attack from Voro then. After Vilnus the Frigates will take a melee unit and sail east, to harass/burn Seoul and any other Roman/Greek cities on the west coast of the continent.


Should be able to have another 6 horsemen in Sphinx ready to upgrade and attack from this vector. Another group of 4 Frigates can focus on taking down Grayson and Beowulf, as my Caravels patrol the coast for any potential escaping settlers.



The last group of Cossacks will take Neptune and look at pushing in toward the Roman core.



Finally I should have another group of 4 Frigates to get started on burning this coastline. I might have to be careful approaching Gore and Skinny Cows without my full navy but certainly Buenos Aires, Sign Error and Fortune Cookie should fall.