Civs in RtR: Thread 2

[pindicator]

Sacrificial Altar is far better than Duns just for the strategy it opens up. The big draw on Celts is being able to get Guerilla 3 and 50% withdraw on so many of their units. And you can't chop hills, so I would give a slight edge to Gaels in the UU dept. Are the Aztec power levels higher than the bar you're looking for? (Do Altars need to go to 120h?) Or do the Celts need a buff?

[Krill]

I'm actually trying to figure out how to value the whip duration decrease. Tl;Dr I'm not convinced it has any real power, in the context of the Ziggarut, Dun or even Forum.

[Charriu]

Well if it comes down to comparing Aztec and Celts, we first have to ask the question: Are we satisfied with the current implementation of the Celts? Personally I like the way they are implemented. They are definitely interesting. The Celt's UU is defintly better then the Aztec one. I also have to agree with Pindicator that the Aztec UB is better then the Celtic UB. There's also the fact that the Dun goes obsolete at some point.

In my view the Aztec are ok with your changes and the Celts need to be buffed in some way. Would changing the Celt's starting techs be enough? Maybe we change Mysticism to Mining?

[Charriu]

I'm actually trying to figure out how to value the whip duration decrease. Tl;Dr I'm not convinced it has any real power, in the context of the Ziggarut, Dun or even Forum.

But would you change the UB? This is definitely one of the most unique UB in the game and it would hurt if this would be gone.

[Krill]

If we accept Sumeria is at the right power level then it gives us the reference point for the UB, and the UU is easy to compare to the Preat and GS.

But I reckon Celts need considering first. The UB has nothing to compare to, the UU is again difficult to find reference for, because muskets are the first units that really use G3 and offensively other than CKN.

My gut feeling is that the Celts are Inca power level, they are interesting and they don't need any real changes except to the trait production bonus on the Dun. They are counterable though, everything dies to siege, and axes on hills do actually work to hold individual tiles. Xbows are the death nell as well. GS off boats are good but not CKN good, and if you can't hold the seas then GS can't be used offensively there either. So I'm not unduly concerned about this.

Even if the Jag is upped to strength 6 and W2, I still pick the GS and Celts over that. So the UB has to be good. But compared to the Ziggarut for timing and flexibility of tech path, and Rathaus for additional cost decrease, what is the power of the reduced happiness burden? It needs a low happy cap, significant horizontal growth, early CoL and the opportunity to build them before it actually matters, and it fails off once you start trying to whip units that cost 70 hammers or higher; it doesn't work on buildings. So I don't know if I value Aztecs without significant improvement.

[Charriu]

So maybe the Aztec UB replaces an earlier building instead of the courthouse and gives it's whip-bonus to that building.

[Krill]

I don't think moving it earlier helps: it can only go on a barracks, granary, monument or library. I'd make the argument that coming earlier, in any of those phases, doesn't help it. In those phases of the game anything not going into growth is a mistake unless there is a specific plan to use the whipped item to take something you can then grow or whipped military us only good for defending growth, and taking cities. It does not significantly alter the ability to whip settlers, because of the cost of them. The fastest a whip cycle can go on a settler whip us something like 5 turns and that requires 14fpt. Even an 8-9fpt city that at size 6 can make 15fhpt (or chops are timed to provide the seed hammers) can only make a settler every 7 turns, 5 turns growth, 1 turn to put in hammers and 1 turn to whip. The point being every civ can do this and just stack unhappiness: it only matters if those civs can't get new happiness online. I don't think moving it earlier helps with power but could make the fun more accessible.

IMO later on, when not just focusing on growth it shines more but then it competes with swapping over to workshops.

People have suggested having it also halve the draft unhappy timer but that requires SDK coding to express new XML tags. This would essentially halve the number of cities needed to maintain constant draft cycles rather than increase the power of drafting. Huge maps are 5 drafters per turn, which would mean 16 cities rather than 32, which makes it significantly easier to micro other cities to stagnation and just pump hammers. This is the last option imo, due to the coding required.

A simpler option is to just move the Sacrificial Alter to Priesthood and buff the Jag a bit more. So wonder about leaving W1, no W2 and adding Formation.

[Krill]

I am so horrendously bored today, I've been evicted from my study because the missus is working in there all day. No gaming for me!

Looking at the Aztecs, the SA at Priesthood seems a lot fairer than Sumeria and the Ziggarut there because of the start techs. Enough that, with the whip effect, it's perfectly pickable IMO. The higher opportunity cost of the tech requirement is paid back with the whip anger changes. That leaves the UU, and how to compare a sword to a 6 strength axe that has greater longevity just due the strength increase? We'll, I'd say that out of the civs with sword UUs, Aztecs probably get the best UB in this build, but not by a massive amount. Enough to say that the UU doesn't need to be bonkers.

Formation is likely too much, but at the same time there are not many remaining options. Drill 2? March? W1 doesn't do much, it's just flavour and an opportunity to make swords defend when you don't want them to. Or should benchmarked something more drastic and change the UU to a mace? And possibly counter balance Japan with a sword UU...

[Charriu]

UB at priesthood sounds good and also is fitting for civ and theme.
Replacing macemen could be an option, but then it can't get woodsman, which is meaningless at that point.

[Krill]

Let's just put this up: Aztecs:

Aztecs: Hunting/Mysticism. UB: Court house replacement: Sacrificial Alter. 50% anger duration after sacrificing population, requires Priesthood, cost 90. UU: Sword replacement. Starts with Woodsman 1

Is this OK? I'd say it's good enough for the purpose of this mod. The UB has most of the power.