Civs in RtR: Thread 2

[Charriu]

Baray 1: Granary replacement, no tech requirement (or one of their starting techs), half cost but no trait modifier, +1 or 2 food in addition to normal granary effects.
Baray 2: just increase the +food to the point where it is meaningful (4? 6? ... 10???)
Baray 3: add to specialist yields +1food

Ballistaphant - whatever configuration make it non-resource dependent. Don’t want Khmer stuck with no ivory and thusno UU. 
Ballistaphant 1: same as now but 2 movement and/or collateral to small number of units (2?) [similar to CKN]
Balistaphant 2: catapult replacement with 2 movement
Balistaphant 3: catapult replacement with either higher base strength, or starts with a couple promotions

I like Baray 2 and 3, with 3 being my favorite. I don't like 1 mainly because it's another granary replacement and with that we loose a aqueduct replacement, which hurts the variety.

Ballistaphant 1 and 2 are my UU favorites. With 2 being my favorite. If it's 1 I would also keep the number of units smaller then the CKN, but the damage limit should be better then the CKN. After all it's an elephant trampling on you.  

I also have another idea that propabely needs SDK changes, but I just throw it out. I know that some mods have buildings that "act as a fresh source of water". I expect that this is not feasable, right?

[Krill]

The issue with the aqueduct is it's basically worthless until factories. That means you put the value of the special, unique, ability against the entire cost of the building. This doesn't mean it should be moved away from the aqueduct, just it needs to be a damned good building.

I don't believe that any of these we suggestions can be implemented without significant SDK changes, or by breaking the economic model. The UU changes are suggested by cornflakes are massively broken as well. No way to play against any of them.

[Cornflakes]

Going off the catapult with promotions idea I was thinking something like:
- Tactics promotion (or Flanking 1+2) to give the Balistaphant 30% surviveabilty chance
- Barrage 1 + Flanking 1 (+ unlock access to take Flanking 2 with a promotion)
- Or just 1 of [Barrage or flanking]
- Or simply increase the number of units and max damage for the ballistaphant-catapult

[Krill]

None of that is interesting in any way though. It doesn't change how you play. It's just straightforward power being loaded onto a unit. I'm not even sure it's possible to make a basic siege unit interesting without giving it the ability to kill.

[Mr. Cairo]

well, the Ballista Elephant is supposed to "counter" Knights more effectively than regular War Elephants by attacking them before Pikes in a stack. But it doesn't really do that, since if someone is defending with Knights they're probably already losing and the UU makes no difference. So, the obvious thing to do is make it so it actually does what it's supposed to. Either on the attack, in which case give it 2 moves (which is way too good).
Or on the defense, in which case let it have defensive bonuses (like the Immortal does), so it becomes essentially a Pike replacement that's available to the Khmer much earlier than Pikes normally are.

edit: and not require Ivory, as Cornflakes mentioned above.

[Krill]

The Ballistaphant actually counters HA as well. If we give it defensive bonuses, it gains them against all units, and becomes a monster: how do you attack into them? They have higher strength than all units until the mace (equal with preat) but gets odds on HA? And if you bring siege, in an SoD, the ballistaphant doesn't even need siege to wreck a stack that wanders into Khmers territory. The only thing stopping one unit stacks is the cost of them compared to swords, but swords require support units to cover them.

Given the "Attacks mounted first" mechanic, they will still attack knights regardless of what is in a stack: it does work if the Khmer are defending within their territory which is the only time it's really going to come into use.

[Charriu]

I don't believe that any of these we suggestions can be implemented without significant SDK changes, or by breaking the economic model. The UU changes are suggested by cornflakes are massively broken as well. No way to play against any of them.

Cornflakes also suggested just raising the food bonus of the Baray. Right now it's at +1 food at which point would you say it breaks the economic model?

[Krill]

At +1.

Messing around with free yields is a really bad idea. PB26 used a mod where we messed about with tile yields and other parts of the economic model. The tl;dr is that free yields are a bad thing.

[Charriu]

Mh just throwing out some more ideas out for the baray:

1. +1 food and heals units extra X% damage/turn
   
2. +1 food and +1 population, of course the population is a one time only effect like with the hanging gardens (but I just looked into the xml and the hanging garden effect is global, so this propably not possible)
   
3. +1 food and +1 happiness from state religion
   

[Rusten]

You can give the baray 2 priest slots and a bonus to GPP (like the Roman forum). Fits thematically for the Khmer and a GPP city is one that could potentially want to build aqueducts as you need a higher city size.