Civs in RtR: Thread 2

[Mardoc]

The issue with the aqueduct is it's basically worthless until factories. That means you put the value of the special, unique, ability against the entire cost of the building. This doesn't mean it should be moved away from the aqueduct, just it needs to be a damned good building.

Sounds like what really needs fixing is the base aqueduct. Any way to ramp up unhealthiness earlier, maybe taking some of the unhealthy of Factories and apply it to earlier buildings? Or give the aqueduct some additional effect besides health. Maybe make the granary only save 35% of food and the aqueduct the other 15%? Give aqueducts an Engineer slot?

[Krill]

The base building is fine. That's just...how it is. Changing the aqueduct is pretty close to the definition of change for changes sake. It has a purpose, it fits a purpose. Why change it?

[Mardoc]

The base building is fine. That's just...how it is. Changing the aqueduct is pretty close to the definition of change for changes sake. It has a purpose, it fits a purpose. Why change it?

Someone named Krill told me it's "basically worthless".  Now you're saying it's fit for purpose?  You could delete it from the game and just make a factory cost more hammers with less of an unhealthy penalty.

It's at least odd to be a building that you unlock 150 turns before you build.  And I grant 'sitting there never built, just taking up room on the builds screen' isn't exactly required to change for the game to be playable - but it's definitely as bad as a civ you never choose, and you're fixing those.

[Krill]

The base aqueducts purpose is based around managing unhealthiness in factory cities: T-Hawk once said factories are worthless without power plants, and the health cost from both makes it really hard to keep cities over size 12 healthy. But that's why hydro dams and recycling centres exist as well. Is it were that you unlock it that much sooner but it doesn't make any difference if the building was renamed Sewers and made available at Education.

I disagree that it's no different to a civ. The leaders and civs are part of what makes the game replayable. They are variables in a system where the aqueduct is a constant, unchanging (and unbuilt) option that has a role.

The Unique Buildings based on aqueducts though, they do need changing and I would not disagree that they could be moved to another building if deemed necessary.

[pindicator]

So then the unique thing about the Baray should be that it's a building you want to build in select / all cities before factories. Probably want to keep the plus flat food bonus to keep the theme. But free flat yields are easy to break the game with. (I know, this is all recap so far.)

+2 food would be like giving every city a population you have to pay a good amount of hammers for - something that could be good in some specialized locations but would be a trap to put everywhere.

We could try swapping out the flat food bonus and encouraging food generation by having barays boost farms in some way. +1f to farms in a city seems too much. Oh, i don't think it's doable just in XML but having the Baray enable irrigation in a city would be a good idea and thematic.

How many farms are usually placed in a city? Would +1h to farm yields in a city be too much? Considering a cost of 100h for an aqueduct, you still wouldn't want to build it ahead of a granary and it would encourage more farms than other civs and give a more unique game style but maybe it's still too much. Maybe 1c is better, but that is close to Environmentalism - yet comes a lot earlier.

[pindicator]

Or if you want to get more radical, could we make the Baray give plains tiles in a city +1f/-1h (turn them into grass tiles). I'm guessing that change can happen like how ocean tiles can get +1c from the Portuguese UB. And grass tiles are better than plains in general, but the difference doesn't usually show up until workshops get widespread

[Krill]

It is not possible for a building to change either a specific tile subtype (plains, grassland) or tile improvement yield without SDK modding. It is possible for changes to river bonus yields and a domain tile type (sea only) to be altered by a building though.

[pindicator]

I think adding to all riverside tiles would be too strong for a Classical era building...

Next idea: can we add to the amount of food that gets stored up by a granary? I'm thinking +1f and an extra 10% if food stored on pop growth (totaling 60% with a granary). Or is the granary bonus a hard coded amount?

[Krill]

It is something that is possible. Assuming it was built at size 5 and there were no further whips, it would save around 35 food by growth to size 15 and all the consequent costs and profits of having the labourer sooner.

[Krill]

I was actually considering having the ballistaphant have the ability to make a baray in a city, make ballista plants need barays and not ivory, and provide between 10% and 20% food savings before suggesting that mechanic for the Native Americans.