5.58 Brainstorming thread

[Nelphine]

It means bezerkers aren't going to absolutely dominate things like great drakes, sky drakes and hydra anymore. On the other hand, they'll still destroy things earth elementals and wraiths. I'd say first strike should also be included, so things like colossus and death knights also benefit. 

I'm not sure it's the right move, but I think it's definitely worth trying because the AI is just awful at trying to use it otherwise.

[Ozymandyus]

Any opinions on allowing Thrown/Breath/maybe First Strike to work on the defense? That's a pretty major change, I was expecting more responses to it.

In my experience, thrown/breath/first strike are the only ways to take out some of the uber late-game units, like sky drakes. With this change I suppose you still could, but at the expense of massive more amounts of casualties. On the surface of it, I would disagree with making this change. It makes things like the drakes and death knights too powerful.

[Nelphine]

Interesting. I would have thought this change is the only thing that lets you take any casualties from those units - soften up with ranged until a first strike unit can kill them (although a strong enough first strike unit wouldn't actually need any softening up done.)

[Bahgtru]

Are you excluding gaze or is that just for brevity?

The only issue I see with this is that it widens the gap between tactical and strategic. I'm reading the 2 years strategic combat thread and... I'm getting ideas

[Seravy]

Gaze happens before any other attack, thrown and first strike included, and works on defense. So the discussion isn't relevant for it.
If anything, this is another reason for changing thrown/breath to make it more consistent with gaze attacks (although gaze would still be faster than them and would have no suppression related limitations).

[Seravy]

...actually I was wrong, gaze happens after thrown/breath but before first strike according to the wiki.
Assuming we agree on this change, next we need to decide the new rules. This change brings up a lot of possible new interactions that have no defined rules yet.

What is the order of attacks if:
-The unit has both first strike and a thrown/breath attack
-Same as above but the enemy negates first strike
-If both the attacker and defender have first strike
-If both the attacker and defender have thrown/breath
-A combination of the above (attacker and defender both having both types of attacks, or one of them having both the other only one kind)
-Where to we put the Gaze attack in this system (if first strike and thrown have same priorities, we can't have gaze between the two)
-If a unit negates first strike but has its own thrown or breath attack (possible from Chaos Channels on halberdiers)
-Fortunately it's not possible for a unit to have both First Strike and Negate First Strike, not even heroes (no item of buff grants either of these) so we can ignore that one
-How does Haste interact with all the above.

So yeah, I'd like to know what algorithm to code because we have a million options...
read the wiki entries https://masterofmagic.fandom.com/wiki/Haste and https://masterofmagic.fandom.com/wiki/First_Strike to get an idea what the current system does for these. Note we nerfed Haste to only work on the offense. (we might want to consider changes to that, too, although probably not necessary)

[Seravy]

Here is an attempt to design an initial version to start the discussion (note, "thrown" below refers to both thrown and breath attacks, as they are handled the same in the current system and will be in the new one as well) :


0. Fear effect is rolled for the attacker and defender if applicable. Any figures failing their rolls will not participate in any of the following attacks.
I think the current version might roll this separately for each attack done. It makes more sense not to.
1. Attacker and defender uses Gaze attacks simultaneously. If the attacker has Haste, they execute it a second time, simultaneously.
Currently, the attacker goes first for these, possibly killing the defender entirely (remember, these are usually save or die effects), so it provides a large advantage for the attacker. If our design goal is to reduce the advantage on the attacker's side, making it either simultaneous, or defender first, is desirable.
Currently, gaze attacks happen after thrown but before first strike attacks. If our goal is to make First Strike and Thrown happen at a similar timing, which is implied by our goal to make Negate First Strike affect both, gaze either needs to also happen at the same time as those, or earlier. As looking at the enemy is obviously faster than striking them with a long/fast weapon, I think earlier is the only thing that makes sense.
Currently, Haste does not apply to Gaze attacks at all. I see no real reason to exclude it.
2. Attacker and defender uses Thrown attacks simultaneously. If either of them has First Strike, and the other has no Negate First Strike, the unit with First Strike will also use their normal attack simultaneously. However, defender only uses thrown or first strike if they have less than 2 Suppression counters. At most X (was it 20?) damage can be dealt to an enemy in this step, any additional damage that would be done is applied in the next step.
We have 5 things to decide here :
-does the attacker or the defender go first or neither (we want to eliminate attacker advantage)
-are first strike normal attacks before, at the same time, or after thrown (we want first strike and thrown to use the same mechanics)
-can first strike affect thrown by making the first striking unit use their thrown before the non-first striking one (makes no sense for flavor, having a long enough sword/riding a horse does not make your thrown axe any faster, so first strike should only modify normal attacks)
-Can defending thrown work an unlimited amount of times? I think that would be a very bad idea, leading to sending a single first strike unit into a group of enemies becoming a "kill everyone in 1 turn and take no damage" tactic. This would be even more harmful for the AI than being unable to use thrown well. While the human can get around the AI's thrown attacks by shooting twice at the target, this approach still won't work them if the AI has lots of thrown units in the battle. This method is also more flavorful - if you're busy trying to avoid incoming arrows, or have already thrown your weapons at an enemy, you shouldn't be able to use them anymore for that combat round.
-The first strike damage cap should or should not apply to thrown and if yes, how. We might also want to rethink the amount here or make it a formula instead of a constant somehow (simplest and easiest to understand if the cap is applied to the sum total damage and excess is delayed to the next step, the amount we should discuss.)
3. Attacker and defender execute their normal attacks, unless they already did so in the previous step.
Nothing special here, same as always.
4. If the attacker has Haste, it will execute both their thrown and normal attack.
Currently, the additional thrown attack happens at the time of the first thrown attack, however the additional normal attack does not benefit from the effect of First Strike. Doing both here instead is more consistent and less powerful. Like in the current, nerfed version, the defender doesn't get to use their Haste. We might want to consider allowing it instead if and only if the defender has zero suppression (so it can happen at most once).

[Nelphine]

I don't have time to go over all decision points yet, but I don't think haste should apply to gaze attacks. Gaze is completely different than attacks, as it's save or die, and it goes first . I agree with haste attacks NOT going first, so hasting gaze and letting it go first isn't consistent. Flavor wise, you obviously look at your opponent the entire time you're fighting and you still only gaze once - moving fast enough to attack more often doesn't change how fast or how long you look at your opponent.

That being said, I think you didn't write it out, but touch effects and poison happen on normal attacks (or do they work on breath thrown as well?) so haste doubles those, so I can see why it makes sense to have haste double gaze too. I just disagree. (And of I could haste would NOT double touch effects, but it WOULD double poison).

[Seravy]

Yeah touch attacks happen as part of all other attacks, so having thrown, breath, gaze, or haste doubles them, having both quadruples them. As they are part of doing an attack, not part of the ordering of attacks themselves, it's outside the scope of the procedure we're remaking.

[Nelphine]

Figured.
Can you confirm what first strike/thrown damage cap is now? I didn't know it existed (otherwise, my bezerkers couldn't one shot great drakes without getting hurt).


I'd like suppression to affect the damage cap, as that allows the ability to still be used on defense (this working for the AI) without allowing the unit to go unhurt (this being abuseable by the human).

Something like each suppression reduces the damage cap by 1/3. (You could go 1/2 but the faster it happens the more the human can abuse it.)

There's two different abuses:
1) the
 Human runs in and uses a thrown unit to not only do damage first on defense, but also more damage than current on defense.
2) the AI has a first strike unit, so the human uses cannon fodder unit to attack to suppress the first strike and then uses its own first strike unit to kill the AI unit without taking danage.

1) is comparable to today. Currently the human already knows enough to simply never let the first strike unit be attacked, so the AI never gets to do damage. With this change, the human can simply do the same thing but on defense. I don't actually mind this, as it is much less annoying gameplay, and much more accessible for newer players. The ai also finally has a chance to at least hurt these human units with its own first strike and thrown.
2) is something the AI can't replicate, and aside from the cost of spearmen, means my bezerkers can still kill great drakes without damage, which defeats the entire purpose of this change. So suppression has to be slow enough that I can't reasonably bring enough spearmen to protect my bezerkers, which is why I've suggested suppression of 1/3, and why I've suggested suppression doesn't prevent the attack at all, it simply shifts when the damage occurs.