5.58 Brainstorming thread

[Nelphine]

Tldr summary: very rares are the problem. It feels silly to slaughter them when it's so obvious how the human could easily avoid it. I've never found gameplay to be bad because the ai couldn't use these abilities on common, uncommon, or city troops although I believe when you say it happens a lot at those levels.

Long version:
Right and that's why for me death knights are the epitome of the problem I have. No breath means they do just as much damage on defense as on offense, if permitted to defend at all, and speed 5 means they should really almost always get to attack. Drakes on the other hand clearly are 'meant' to have a weakness when they are attacked, by completely losing their breath, and they aren't quite as fast.

However, death knights end up suffering just as badly as the drakes when attacked by a first strike unit, and none of them end up feeling like a very rare opponent. 

So for both, we end up with a situation where it isn't worth the AI s time to bother getting these units. Simply not researching them and summoning other units that don't 'waste' abilities on high speed or first strike/breath is always a better choice for the AI, because the AI just can't use those abilities effectively. For instance, storm giants are always the better choice for sorcery, and doom bats are always the better choice for chaos (hydra are probably still better than doom bats but only due to their survivability - and the AI doesn't understand to only put 1 hydra in every city, which would be incredibly powerful - instead it builds them like any other stack which is incredibly wasteful. So overall, doombats are probably still a smarter choice than hydra for the AI). The amount saved on research alone would be worthwhile, plus the ability to get more units for the sake sake summoning cost.

But that isn't FUN in terms of replayable gameplay. Those units should be summoned and used by the AI. But once you recognize how to beat them, then it becomes dreadful to see the AI use them - and lairs that contain them become lairs that you cherry pick extremely early much like using archers to kill earth elemental lairs.

And when you know how to do that, playing strategies that don't let you do that become much less desirable, in much the same way that many people find sprites or focus magic cockatrices to be absurdly good. The strategy might not ACTUALLY be that much better, but it FEELS way too powerful to give up a strategy that can take out very rares without much problem.

Also note, this also impacts any high speed rare units, like Angels and wraiths. Both get slaughtered despite supposedly high speed, because they come straight into attack range.

[Seravy]

However, death knights end up suffering just as badly as the drakes when attacked by a first strike unit, and none of them end up feeling like a very rare opponent.

This very much feels like a specialized Life realm problem, pretty much anyone else can't deal enough first strike damage, and the Death Knight will drain enough life back that killing them in melee is not an option. (unless you're using a very rare creature yourself - then it's back to the generic problem of your breath always beating the AIs.)

The fact you mention Angel and Wraith, both of which not having the abilities confirms it.
Your problem is simply that Life buffed units are way too effective - especially if they have thrown or first strike but I'd say even if they don't you get the same outcome anyway. A properly buffed unit of high men pikemen or hammerhands can destroy even a Great Wyrm or Colossus. Why would Berserkers be any less effective?

Overall I feel what you talk about is a separate problem. (if it even is a problem, as Life realm is supposed to be able to do that.)

[Bahgtru]

Overall I feel what you talk about is a separate problem. (if it even is a problem, as Life realm is supposed to be able to do that.)

Yes/Yes/Not to that extent. The issue is berserkers. How about nerfing thrown instead? Make barbarians not kill even a death knight with their thrown and we're set. Raise melee equally and it's not even a serious nerf. All that means is that life will need to spend some mana healing.

Not as perfect a solution but surely a faster one...

[Bahgtru]

Everything that's not already included in MoM RC is not copy-paste compatible. If someone puts in the extra effort to resolve the conflicts and makes the improvements work, I'm happy to add them, but for me, normal MoM is not high enough priority.

AI improvements however are entirely different - as CoM uses different game rules, spells and other stuff, the actual decision the AI needs to make is different so in most cases it needs completely new AI code. For the few cases that don't, those improvements were already comped to the RC where it was compatible.

OK, but you've added to MOM some gameplay changes rather than just bug fixes. The two big ones are:
- engineers build roads during the normal turn, opening up the possibility of flight+road building and of interrupting the order to build immediately and move
- ships limits were removed - was this for allowing AIs to board and unload? If so nevermind

Have you tried putting in the recent stuff?
- Z for next city 
- more info on city screen
- spotting at distance 3 bugfix

Could you explain what "not copy-paste compatible" means?

[Seravy]

How about nerfing thrown instead? Make barbarians not kill even a death knight with their thrown and we're set.

How? Most units start as low as 1-3 Thrown which is really the lowest possible.

But with enough buffs you can turn a Thrown 1 into a Thrown 10 with +3 To Hit...
So if we want to take this route, we need to look at each buff or passive effect individually, and alter how much they add to thrown. As is, most of these are equally effective on thrown and melee.

- ships limits were removed - was this for allowing AIs to board and unload? If so nevermind

Yes and Kyrub did that if I remember correctly. The AI might possibly work correctly now with less capacity ships but I never dared to risk trying that. The main issue with it is the extreme inefficiency - gathering multiple ships takes longer and the arrived stack is smaller (more boats take more space) which then either attack as is and means easier to defend against or has to spend another dozen turns waiting for the next transport and building up to 9 units. Realistically that's not going to happen - the stack is in enemy territory and will be killed almost immediately. So in short the transport unloading stacks of 8 is way better than unloading stacks of 6 (or, possibly, 3 separate stacks of 2, not entirely sure which happens.)

Could you explain what "not copy-paste compatible" means?

It either means the code in the affected areas were not identical in CoM and MoM so even if I turn the changes to a patch file, it'll give an error that the source file is different and will likely crash the game. Like, imagine if CoM didn't need a part of code (for example the word of recall spell doesn't exist) and used that space for the new feature. You can't apply that patch to the base game otherwise Word of Recall will no longer function and will instantly crash the game. So while the necessary code itself would be the same, it has to be inserted in a different way to a different location. This are fairly easy to solve if someone wants to put in the extra effort required.
Or, it can also mean the affected areas are identical but the desired solution is different, for example the AI picking a combat spell for CoM will not function in MoM because there are completely different spells. In this case completely new code needs to be made so basically whatever is available in CoM is of no use at all. These are likely not worth the time at all.

- more info on city screen

No because it's not working correctly : the palette of the replaced background has issues. I'm still waiting for an answer from ILSE on how to fix that.

- Z for next city

Most likely wasn't compatible if it's not already included. (although I admit sometimes I simply forget to save the changes into a patch file)

spotting at distance 3 bugfix

I classified that as a feature which we didn't like and removed, not a bug.

[Seravy]

So to summarize,

-We might want to take a look at the efficiency of various buffs for Thrown/Breath attacks to solve the problem Nelphine is talking about
-Independently of that we should decide if we do or do not want the new system first. Even if it does not address this particular "buffed thrown is too good" issue, it doesn't automatically mean it's not an improvement in other areas. However I'm currently leaning towards it being bad because most thrown breath units aren't in need of a buff and the change definitely makes them better even for human users.

Back on topic of the AI...

and the AI doesn't understand to only put 1 hydra in every city, which would be incredibly powerful - instead it builds them like any other stack which is incredibly wasteful.

First of all the AI does know to put 1 (or up to 3 depending on personality) summoned creatures per city.
Second, I wouldn't say having many in a stack is wasteful - they regenerate. A fully regenerating stack of strong units is always formidable, even more so in the hands of a Chaos wizard. Anyone except a Life wizard will fear such a stack.
Third, Mystic Surge is a thing so the AI actually does have a a good way to use Hydra already.
Death Knights, again, these destroy pretty much anyone who isn't playing Life. Why would they be wasteful? They move 5, can't be webbed, fly so very hard to attack actually, and heal crazy amounts if they ever get a chance to attack a unit. They also have high armor (9) and health so they are not trivial to kill early, and almost impossible if there are several. (unless it's your doomstack against neutrals. But they to defend a random city against 3-5 of these attacking it backed by a wizard...)

And when you know how to do that, playing strategies that don't let you do that become much less desirable, in much the same way that many people find sprites or focus magic cockatrices to be absurdly good. The strategy might not ACTUALLY be that much better, but it FEELS way too powerful to give up a strategy that can take out very rares without much problem.

So yeah, ultimately you're not talking about the AI here, you are basically saying "Life is so OP I don't want to play anything else".
And thus we should separate this into two different parts, a "do we need to nerf life and/or buffing thrown" and a "do we need a new thrown system" one.

1. The new thrown system.
I'm heavily leaning towards not implementing it right now.
-It is a lot of work
-It might make game balance worse by powering up units that have no need for it
-It does help the AI but the amount of improvement is questionable.

So unless someone has something new to say about it, I'll probably not implement it.

2. Life/Thrown buffing.

This one is trickier. While ofc thrown is extra effective, I'm not convinced it makes a real difference. Let's pretend thrown doesn't strike first. Wouldn't the buffed berserker still survive the fight with the Great Drake and still kill it? Nelphine regularly mentions his berserkers have lots of (40+?) total health, a Great Drake can at most deal 21 retaliation damage, if not suppressed and there is no armor. That's enough to kill most unbuffed, below elite level normal units but will likely not kill anything stronger.
Then, as Life wizards are masters of healing, the unit will be at full health to fight again pretty much the next turn anyway.
In case of a Death Knight, they deal 4*7.2 damage and some with Life Steal but Life can buff resistance high enough so we can ignore that part. That makes the total damage ~28, more than the Great Drake but still not enough to kill a properly buffed unit.
So I feel Thrown is actually not making any difference other than "I don't need to spam Mass Healing after killing these creatures on turn 1".

That said this doesn't mean life buffed Thrown is not a problem - we've seen on Draconians and Gladiators that it is - in the early game. Killing a unit of war bears or halberdiers without retaliation is a big difference compared to taking retaliation damage as in this phase of the game your stack will only have very few units against superior numbers on the enemy side.
So there might still be merit to nerfing some buffs to have no or lower effect on thrown. But doing that will have next to no effect on killing Death Knights and Great Drakes. To begin with, the single figure very rares have so much health and armor they aren't likely to go down to thrown damage. To do that, pretty much everything is necessary - Crusade, Warlord, Holy Weapon, Lionheart, High Prayer and so on and probably even some Chaos buffs, like Flame Blade and Blazing March. Any less than 13 Thrown with +4 To Hit won't even get close.

[Seravy]

A list of what can currently affect thrown and breath attacks and by how much (ignoring effects limited to heroes or otherwise unavailable in most cases) :

+1 Thrown/Breath/Ranged at levels Regular, Veteran, Ultra-Elite
+1 To Hit on Thrown from having Magical Weapons (or Heavenly Light)
+2 Thrown/Breath/Ranged from Chaos Surge if Chaos Channelled
Base 4 Breath from Chaos channels
+1 To Hit, +1 Thrown/Breath/Ranged from Animated
+2 Thrown from Flame Blade
+3 Thrown from Lion Heart
+2 Breath from Land Linking if Chaos Chanelled or Undead
+3 Breath from Focus Magic (thrown is turned to ranged instead)
+1 To Hit on Thrown from Holy Weapon
+1 To Hit from Survival Instinct if Chaos Chanelled or Undead
+2 Thrown/Breath/Ranged from Node bonus if Chaos Channelled
+1 Thrown/Breath/Ranged from Leadership at level 6 or higher
+1 To Hit from Prayer or High Prayer (High Prayer does not increase thrown/breath/ranged in addition, only melee)
+3 Thrown from Blazing March (but no Breath)
+1 To Hit from Guardian
+3 To Hit from Super Soul Linker if Chaos Chanelled or Undead
+1 Thrown/Breath/Ranged from Darkness if Undead

that's everything.
I don't see trying to nerf To Hit a viable path (there are too many things granting it and "grants +1 to hit except to thrown attacks" would be weird anyway) but To Hit isn't that big a deal if the base value of the Thrown/Breath strength is low. As they generally start low, reducing the buff amounts can have a large impact.

Overall, if we do want to go this way, we should be nerfing level ups, Lion Heart, Flame Blade and Blazing March. However I don't think I have heard anyone complain Chaos being too good at using thrown - why bother if you can just nuke anything anyway or shoot them to death with arrows. So that leaves Lion heart and levels. If we removed the +1 Thrown/Breath (while leaving the +1 Ranged) on Regular and Ultra Elite Levels, and made Lionheart not affect it (hard to explain why though when it works on arrows...), then we can get rid of 5 total, so a pure Life Berserker would only have 4 Thrown (1 from the level and 3 base) with whatever To Hit bonus under typical circumstances (instead of the current 9).

[Nelphine]

My standard 'late' game bezerkers offense would probably be: 
Ultra elite, holy weapon, prayer, holy bonus 1.

This gives 11 attack, +6 to hit, 7 thrown. They also have 24 health.

This is enough that 2 bezerkers reliably kill a sky drake without losses, although they obviously take damage in return.

If I want an actual doom brigade, then I add the following to offense: flame blade, holy bonus 2 (replaces holy bonus 1), leadership 2 (more likely 3 but we'll err on the low side).

Now they are +6 to hit, attack 17, thrown 10 (or is it 12 with leadership?)

Now a single bezerkers unit kills a great drake reliably, although it takes damage in return.

If I want to be silly then I use lionheart and high prayer. (Leadership up to 3)

Now my unit is attack 24, +6 to hit, thrown 16 (19?)

At this point the thrown is enough to one shot a sky drake. Add in crusade and the unit can one shot a hydra although it takes damage.



But the main point is the very first version. Holy weapon, ultra elite, prayer, holy bonus 1 (and the holy bonus isn't even mandatory) These aren't such amazing buffs that the unit is awe inspiring. If that sky drake attack first, it would decimate the bezerkers. A great drake or death knight probably wouldn't even be hurt.


I'm not trying to stop the final version once I've started using very rares - those should be ludicrous units. I'm talking about my bezerkers with holy weapon and no other offensive spell buffs. That's where it hurts so badly to watch very rares just roll over and die to my bezerkers.

[Seravy]

Okay let's see...

Ultra elite, holy weapon, prayer, holy bonus 1.

So that's 3 base thrown, +3 from levels total of 6.
+3 To hit (1 base, 1 prayer, 1 holy weapon).

Holy Bonus does not add thrown, and Berserkers have no extra To Hit from magic weapons.

You admit thrown isn't what's killing the enemy in this configuration, Melee does and thrown isn't what's allowing the unit to survive, hit points do. So Thrown isn't even relevant for this case, it merely adds a bit of extra damage.

If I want an actual doom brigade, then I add the following to offense: flame blade, holy bonus 2 (replaces holy bonus 1), leadership 2 (more likely 3 but we'll err on the low side).

Flame Blade adds 2 Thrown. Holy Bonus adds none still, Leadership adds 1 at both Leadership 2 and 3 (it's half of the melee bonus rounded down, like for arrow attacks).

So the total here is only 9 Thrown and +3 To Hit.

One more time the same thing happens as above, except as melee is now crazy high, the unit is killed in one (melee) attack but thrown still does not help preventing retaliation damage and is only a fraction (probably at most 25% of, considering armor) the total damage.

If I want to be silly then I use lionheart and high prayer. (Leadership up to 3)

High Prayer does not add to Thrown. So you get +3 out of this one, now you're up to 12. Now that's starting to be a considerable force. 12*0.6 - 10*0.3 = 4.2 damage per figure, a total of 25.2 damage. Still short of killing the Sky Drake which has 30 health but we are getting very close.

Now, pretending To Hit is a constant, where does this attack power come from?

25% comes from levels (all cases).
25% comes from the base amount on the unit.
25% comes from Lionheart
25% comes from Flame Blade and Leadership.

Out of these, the base amount is necessary - this is what everyone else will be getting, who do not buff the unit.
Levels doubling it is probably an overkill, and lowering that will affect all 3 cases. We are talking about a stat that generally starts at less than half of other stats, so getting the same bonus on it from levels likely isn't a good idea.
Lionheart, by itself, is the reason case 3 is even remotely possible.
So if there is anything to nerf on Thrown, it's levels and lionheart.

However...except for case 3 which really isn't that important - by this time you also have access to things like Crusade, Charm of Life and Exaltation etc so no matter what, if you want the berserker to survive, it will, even if the drake does get a chance to retaliate - what actually causes what you talk about is not your Thrown. It's the powerful melee buffs on a 6 figure unit. It doesn't matter if the Drake gets or does not get to use Breath. It's irrelevant. Other rares and very rares and units in general don't even have Breath in the first place. So your "Drake should use breath" expectation is flawed in the first place. It assumes all enemy creatures have breath. They don't. That Behemoth, Great Wyrm, Colossus, Archangel or Demon Lord doesn't. If your problem is berserkers killing very rares easily, that's not because they aren't using Breath. By not using Breath they merely function the same way all the very rares who don't have Breath in the first place do. If you look at the stats, this should be obvious : their attack strength without Breath is already on par with other very rares, the breath is just an extra very much like having a save or die attack is. When it matters, it's a very powerful extra, but the "base" creature is the one not using the breath.

Either way, if you want their breath to be used, the new thrown attack system is the only solution. Nerfing your thrown will still not allow the enemy to use their breath. But that would be an incorrect solution - again, the majority of very rares don't have breath. In fact only 3 of them do : the 2 drakes and Hydra. All others, and even all rares, do not. I don't consider First Strike - it doesn't increase damage output even in the new system and we already know the "first" damage from your thrown isn't really relevant to preventing the retaliation.


Short version with just the conclusions :
-the new thrown system would be a flawed solution to the issue you describe - only 3 of the rare and very rare creature in the game have a breath attack anyway.
-nerfing thrown would not affect any of the cases because what kills those creatures is your melee attack instead.

Ultimately your problem is completely unrelated to both of the things we are trying to decide. Your problem is buffs being too good for high figure count units. That can't be helped and you already know it. You'd get the same results with high men pikemen, hammerhands, jackal riders or even orc hordes. (though you might need an extra Flame Blade as their base stats are a bit lower)

[Nelphine]

Agreed. My problem is that the AI can't use first strike and breath, when their speed is equal or greater to the humans, and the ai is on defense. However, first strike IS relevant. If the death knight attacked my bezerkers, while I would do a lot of damage, I don't get to use MY thrown AND it heals from all 4 figures AND I don't get to do even normal melee from at least some of my figures. Much like the drake breath, this results in the very rares killing my bezerkers without dying themselves.

That's what I want to fix, and is what I've wanted to fix from the start. I'm NOT worried about the strength of my bezerkers, nor the strength of thrown. I'm worried about the AI inability to deal with it whatsoever, and therefore allowing me to win fights I have no business even attempting let alone winning.