American Politics Discussion Thread

[DaveV]

"Mexican judge" comment was also not racist, btw. A factual claim, very probably an accurate one

No collusion, no obstruction.

Racism, noun: the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

[DaveV]

Generally in respect to Trump's manners - here is the thing which liberals don't seem to understand. From Republican perspective, Democrats of all stripes made a habit from insulting, ridiculing, devaluing Republicans and their values in the meanest, basest ways possible for decades. And during all this time Republican leaders behaved "like adults" and politely pretended that none of this happens. And when it goes on for long enough, it wears people down. Trump is the first Republican leader who lowered himself to Democrat level and started to pay back in kind. Now, I would much prefer Trump's responses to be witty, calm and subtle instead of crude and childish. I think many Reps would agree with me about it. But, on the other hand, many believe that Trump's fighting back is still preferrable to Bush's or Romney's manner of swallowing up shit and smiling.
EDIT: and yes, all liberal outrage about Trump - in Republican eyes is an outrage of a bully who has suddenly discovered that his victim is willing to stand up to him.

The politics of victimhood. Like a three year old, Trump's favorite word is "unfair": "The media has treated me very unfairly." His real campaign slogan is "Your life sucks, and it's all someone else's fault."

No mention of how Trump spent years accusing Obama of being a foreign born Muslim, and Fox and Rush Limbaugh demonized him throughout his presidency. Or Mitch McConnell tabling his Supreme Court nominee and saying his chief goal was to make sure Obama didn't win a second term.

[Gavagai]

From Republican perspective, Democrats of all stripes made a habit from insulting, ridiculing, devaluing Republicans and their values in the meanest, basest ways possible for decades.

Can you cite moments when democratic leadership, or better yet, a democratic president, has done that ?

I can but I won't bother to. My point here is not to establish the accuracy of Republican beliefs but to communicate the content of these beliefs. Establishing their accuracy would require far more work than I am prepared to do now. I can give you one hint: Trump was not the first Republican leader who was ever compared to a Nazi. In fact, every single one of them, including McCain, who was later lionized, was compared to Hitler, explicitly or implicitly, at some point of his career.

[Gavagai]

"Mexican judge" comment was also not racist, btw. A factual claim, very probably an accurate one

No collusion, no obstruction.

Racism, noun: the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

Trump said that the judge has a conflict of interests in a case where Trump was a defender because of his Mexican heritage. I don't see how having a conflict of interest would make the judge somehow "inferior". Also, I think it is very obvious that Trump couldn't possibly mean that all Mexican judges are intrinsically conflicted, he just wanted to say that there is a conflict in that particular case. If you seriously believe that Trump is hostile to Mexicans, this should be not just non-racist for you but trivially true. It is the same thing as to say that a Jewish judge would be probably biased if he ever had to judge a Nazi.
Seriously, I get how people who are willing to call everything racist can believe that it was a racist comment but I am genuinely curious how someone who subscribes to a dictionary definition of racism can possibly call it racist.

[Gavagai]

Trump spent years accusing Obama of being a foreign born Muslim

You are saying it like you believe that being a foreign born Muslim is a bad thing. That's one of the points where I don't get American context at all: I have found the whole birtherism thing just hysterically funny but even Obama's defenders treated it like some kind of seriously insulting accusation which goes far beyond a mere legalistic claim that Obama technically had no right to run for President. That's kind of insane.

[Charriu]

@Charriu

I think that what Trump said on Hollywood Access tape is cringeworthy (in part because it was very obviously an empty bravado - if Trump really behaved this way, we would have literally hundreds of women jumping up now with accusations of sexual harassment). But I do not think it is sexist. I define "sexism" as beliefs or attitudes under which a person's moral worth depends on gender. If Trump said, for example, that women should allow him to "grab them by the pussy" - that would be sexist, because it would deny a woman the right to autonomy. But he just made a factual claim that they allow him to do it because he is "a star" (and very likely an accurate factual claim). Can a factual claim ever be sexist? I think, not.
What I find funny is that Trump said it like it was a new and surprising experience for him. The man made a career in real estate but it took him to move to ultra-liberal Hollywood to meet women with such obviously patriarchal patterns of behavior
Now, you also make a non-specific claim that Trump generally treats women worse than men. This is not what I see. To the contrary, as I see it, Trump attacks men much more often and viciously than women. It is really difficult to top things he said about Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, John McCain - all of them men, all of them white. On the other hand, he was heard to praise people like Nikki Hailey and Sarah Jessica Sanders - both women, one of them a daughter of Indian immigrants. (Btw, can you imagine Trump to tell Hailey to "go back to where you come from"? If not, then you need to concede - his latest tweets were not about race or gender or country of origin but about political positions.) He praised Ben Carson (whom he earlier attacked), a black man, and gave him a position in his administration. It very much looks like that Trump just attacks his political and personal enemies and praises and supports his friends and allies - shocker Political views and personal attitude to Trump is a much better predictor of his attitudes than race or gender. Which means - he is no racist or sexist.

Ah ok. So my and your definition of sexist differ here. In my worldview a sexist would not wait for a woman to allow him to "grab them by the pussy", he would just do it or fantasies about it. And yes, we don't have hundreds of women jumping up with accusations, but we do have over 20 by now.

From Republican perspective, Democrats of all stripes made a habit from insulting, ridiculing, devaluing Republicans and their values in the meanest, basest ways possible for decades.

Can you cite moments when democratic leadership, or better yet, a democratic president, has done that ?

I can but I won't bother to. My point here is not to establish the accuracy of Republican beliefs but to communicate the content of these beliefs. Establishing their accuracy would require far more work than I am prepared to do now. I can give you one hint: Trump was not the first Republican leader who was ever compared to a Nazi. In fact, every single one of them, including McCain, who was later lionized, was compared to Hitler, explicitly or implicitly, at some point of his career.

I have to agree with you about the Nazi comparison. This comparison was not fair to most people in the past, like McCain, which you have mentioned. Still as a non-US citizens, and therefore an outside observer, I have to say, it frightens me to see Trump rallies and the vicious frenzy you can see at those rallies.

[Gavagai]

Here is the thing about Trump's "unfairness" claims: they are true. Media have treated him extremely unfairly which can be easily confirmed by tons of statistical evidence. Like, I literally don't remember when I last saw a positive material about Trump in any major media outside of Fox News. You can call this claim "childish" all you want but, as I have said, the single most important characteristic of factual claims is their accuracy. If someone draws attention to any other characteristic, using epithets like, childish, racist, naive, etc. this is usually an attempt to conceal the inability to challenge the claim in a serious way.

[Gavagai]

Charriu, if you seriously believe that anyone who fantasizes about grabbing someone by the pussy is a sexist, you should be horrified by the world you live in. And a minor nitpick - Trump very explicitly said that women would allow him to grab them if he is "a star", so to say that he wouldn't wait for consent is a mischaracterization, even if we take his words seriously at all.

[AdrienIer]

From Republican perspective, Democrats of all stripes made a habit from insulting, ridiculing, devaluing Republicans and their values in the meanest, basest ways possible for decades.

Can you cite moments when democratic leadership, or better yet, a democratic president, has done that ?

I can but I won't bother to. My point here is not to establish the accuracy of Republican beliefs but to communicate the content of these beliefs. Establishing their accuracy would require far more work than I am prepared to do now. I can give you one hint: Trump was not the first Republican leader who was ever compared to a Nazi. In fact, every single one of them, including McCain, who was later lionized, was compared to Hitler, explicitly or implicitly, at some point of his career.

The problem is that without establishing the accuracy, or even providing context for this comment, you make it sound like republicans are just inventing reasons to hate on democrats and to give up all pretense of good will in public discourse at the highest level. But I won't judge you on not having the time for it.
There's also a difference between being called a nazi by a local activist on facebook and being told to leave the country you were born in by the president. Congressional democrats these past 20 years have been rather tame, until recently when "the squad" started being a bit more blunt. While the republicans in congress have been very aggressive : Newt Gingrich changed the tone of US politics in 94.

[Charriu]

Charriu, if you seriously believe that anyone who fantasizes about grabbing someone by the pussy is a sexist, you should be horrified by the world you live in. And a minor nitpick - Trump very explicitly said that women would allow him to grab them if he is "a star", so to say that he wouldn't wait for consent is a mischaracterization, even if we take his words seriously at all.

That would be an accurate description of my world
Yes, he mentioned consent. Still there are over 20 claims by women about his behaviour towards them.