[SPOILERS] Rusten enters uncharted waters

[naufragar]

1) I have enough early happy to the point where I don't see myself building very early temples. Meditation can be researched after writing for instance and I won't feel a difference.

Given that you've ditched the Oracle plans, what are your thoughts on getting a shrine?  Or is an early shrine not so critical as to prioritize Meditation?

Re: Deity players, yeah, it's a different skill set, but sometimes MP champs are too quick to dismiss the skill it takes to play against such an unfair deficit. In MP, warfare before knights  can work, whereas in high level SP, the AI has thick garrisons everywhere. In MP, you can have some early religion play, whereas the AI will always beeline Buddhism/Hinduism if they start with Myst. They're just two very, very different kinds of games, and even though the AI is quite silly, the human still plays at a severe disadvantage. (At least, this is my justification for barely getting by at emperor.    )

[Rusten]

Given that you've ditched the Oracle plans, what are your thoughts on getting a shrine?  Or is an early shrine not so critical as to prioritize Meditation?

Not critical early, but I want a shrine for my 3rd GP. A shrine is much weaker than a purposeful lightbulb early on, and I don't particularly want to run a priest specialist in the early expansion phase. In the midgame (spread to more cities) and with gold multipliers the shrine will be amazing, but early on it's no better than my gold mines. I'll still tech meditation, but probably after mathematics (Hanging Gardens). In this case the purposeful lightbulb is mainly the engineer one. Lightbulbing philosophy is more to facilitate the engineer and priest GPP.

Priorities: Pottery --> monotheism --> sailing --> writing (scientists -- probably in city #2) --> mathematics (HG) --> meditation (start on priest GPP, happiness) --> MC (forge+engineer GPP).
I think I can get by without monarchy until then, I have the UB, religion, gold and whale for happiness already, but it's not impossible that it gets slotted in before meditation. 

Given that I'm planning on bulbing philosophy (or at minimum starting a golden age) I'll get my priest then. I expect to have at least two different religions at that point, which means 2 temples for 6 priest GPP/t without modifiers. Getting to 300 GPP won't be difficult with pacifism enabled. In an ideal scenario I get Hinduism, Judaism and Taoism, but I'll get by with two. If I end up with 3 or 4 religions then I may lightbulb theology with my 3rd GP and get a shrine with the 4th.

[Zalson]

(At least, this is my justification for barely getting by at emperor.    )

nafraugar, I think you'd find that your recent MP experience translates into success at Emperor and Immortal.

To contribute to the discussion: my biggest weakness is a lack of great person prioritization. What's your thought process/timing behind when you're going for GP (in general)?

Also, thanks for this tip about The Oracle use. It's like everything else in CIV: it depends.

The bottleneck is usually researching everything in time, and it's great for those starts with 0 commerce and lots of forest, but it doesn't do much for me here.

[Rusten]

What's your thought process/timing behind when you're going for GP (in general)?

You always want to use GPP in some manner because it's so efficient. If you've made a long term plan and it doesn't include any GPP at all until after the renaissance then I recommend going back to the drawing board and implementing it somehow. Civ is all about setting goals for yourself and finding the best way to reach them, and if you're not using one of the best mechanics in the game then chances are you're not doing it right. There are exceptions, but at least stop to think about it.

We already had fun calculating this earlier in the thread for prophet --> theology bulb, but let's do it again.
When I have my forge engineer+HG+pacifism I get 10 engineer GPP/t. This engineer will bulb 1000+(total pop x 2)*, let's say 1100 beakers. I'll need 200 GPP for it, so every great person point is worth 5.5 beakers = 55 beakers/t from just passive GPP and an engineer. When you compare that to general empire output at the time it's a ridiculous number. The problem is that sometimes you can only bulb something that doesn't contribute to your overall plan, and then it's less good. But if you can make that extra 55 beakers/t actually matter and be your main techpath then you're golden. It either frees you up to prioritize hammers over research or it doubles up on research, whatever is needed at the time. And this is not a big distraction. All I'm doing is building a wonder that's useful in itself and dedicating one population point to an engineer. Compared to building wealth/research you're saving 1000 hammers! That's a lot of Urukku Pikemen, xbows and trebs! 

To have a profitable war in civ 4 you need to either catch someone completely unaware or have a significant advantage. This is my way of gaining that advantage (UU+tech advantage). Just think of how many cottage turns it takes to make up those 1100 beakers. It frees you up to pursue your goals and work better tiles.

*Scientists are even more effective at 1500 + (total pop x 3), but the techs scientists provide aren't as game-changing. I think philosophy is about 1600 beakers this game, so running 2 scientists for the 100 GPP bulb = ~94 beakers/t. And that doesn't include the yield of the scientists themselves. Now philosophy isn't a game-changer for me, so the engineer bulb is much more impactful and efficient, but it's still very useful to provide another religion for priest GPP and a good civic to pop in and out of with spiritual.

[Rusten]

First to size 2, first to whip and now first to settle a second city -- expansive is wonderful.




And no, I didn't forget to complete the road before settling for instant trade routes. It's pasture --> road --> gold.
Another nice little detail is that the peak and hill has visibility on every tile so I don't need a single warrior in the area. Free to send it north right away.

[Rusten]

Two turns away from polytheism (gold speeds it up by 1 next turn). This is the point where it would really hurt to not get the religion, because if it had fallen earlier I could've simply delayed completing the tech and researched fishing already to use the wb for the crabs. Really want that religion for the fish now. IIRC I've narrowed down the competition to Pindicator and BeardBeard. If they're researching polytheism right now they may beat me by a turn. I believe Pindicator is researching BW, but BeardBeard I couldn't quite figure out so he's the main danger. Hopefully he's chosen meditation. Fishing is only a 3-turn tech FWIW.




Also found an extremely lucrative area. That's a big fish lake with easy lighthouse access. I'm worried someone is in the near fog, but fear not, they're already dead to me.

[darrelljs]

People tend to shy away from chasing religion in such a large game, which ironically probably makes it safer to chase a religion in a large game. Crossing fingers!

Darrell

[Rusten]

Yup, so it seems. Still no religion founded after the turn rolled, so assuming I don't get the worst result and lose a coinflip I can go ahead with the planned micro.
The short version is 3 cities with 3 completed granaries and 4 workers by T43. All 3 cities with at least 2 food resources so city 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 will follow each other in quick succession. The hammer output will be unreal and I will spread like a virus. Much better quality of land than in PB41.

Another reason religion and OR will be very good here is that maintenance costs will be higher than usual from settling a bunch of cities way inland. I will need courthouses and The Forbidden Palace to reduce costs. Still extremely happy about my civ/leader pick.

[Rusten]

Great... just great! Beardbeard founded Hinduism. Not 10 turns ago. Not 5 turns ago. Not 3 turns ago. But through a coinflip to fuck me over the maximum amount and delaying my fishing.

Time to redo all the micro while in a shitty mood.

[AutomatedTeller]

bummer, man. that blows.