[SPOILERS] TheArchduke blasts into Space as Russia

[Sullla]

So this is a perfect chance to discuss early snowballing as a concept for city management. Let's start with the tiles that the current builder is improving. The builder has already improved the rice (for an awesome 5 food / 2 faith tile that also picked up the Irrigation boost) and has two charges left. TheArchduke suggested moving it over to Fogger to improve the cows and truffles, both of which are also getting the Earth Goddess tile bonus. But here's the problem: it's going to take a long time to move that builder over to those tiles, and every turn spent moving is a turn not working improved tiles and not taking advantage of Craftsmanship (and therefore Agoge/Ilkum policies). At the fastest possible movement rate, the builder would improve the cows on Turn 33 and the truffles on Turn 35. That's nine more turns to finish Craftsmanship and I think that's longer than you want to wait.

Instead, I would suggest improving the deer (Turn 28) and then the horses (Turn 30) at the capital. This delivers the Craftsmanship bonus five turns sooner and sets up a switch into Agoge + Urban Planning in time to line up with Fogger finishing its Lavra and switching over to some military units. It also gives the capital three excellent base tiles to work (rice + deer + horses) which combine for +6 food surplus, 5 production, and rapid growth onto the 1/3/2 faith forested plains hills tiles thereafter. True, you lose out on some faith by not working the cattle tile at Fogger but keep in mind that you can't actually *DO* anything with the faith just yet. It's better to accelerate your development by finishing Craftsmanship sooner and getting the tile improvements themselves done sooner. There are even barbarians roaming around Fogger which might make it tricky to get tile improvements down over there. You can improve Fogger's tiles with the second builder which will come out of Fogger after it gets out some military units for defense/exploration.

The deer camp at the capital is also useful because it adds another 2 gold/turn income, and that speeds you along to 240 gold faster. I think you can get there in 5-6 more turns and the monument purchase will be critical in speeding up your cultural output. I disagree on purchasing a shrine and waiting for Choral Music to kick in for the double culture/faith bonus; you need to improve your culture ASAP and it's better to get the monument in place on Turn 32 than wait for the shrine on Turn 38. (Plus you can always cash-rush or build the shrine later if desired.) Slow culture is a problem at the moment and I think you need to snowball it ahead immediately, not wait for your religion to get founded.

Finally, I feel the same way about science which is also lagging a bit. Why research Mining tech right now - is there a particular goal in mind there (?) I would head straight for Writing right now and swap off the tech if you get 60% of the beakers invested, with the goal of placing and locking in a cheap Campus as soon as you meet someone. This is a luscious start with tremendous longterm potential, but you do need to keep accelerating the early game with faster culture and beakers. These would therefore be my suggestions:

1) Improve your resources at the capital first for Turn 30 Craftsmanship
2) This unlocks Agoge to boost Fogger as it produces a few military units
3) Purchase a monument at Fogger immediately once you have 240 gold (should be Turn 31-32)
4) Research Writing to place a Campus ASAP and lock in the cost, then build that next in the capital after a settler for Funky

Obvious this is your game so feel free to disagree!

[TheArchduke]

So this is a perfect chance to discuss early snowballing as a concept for city management. Let's start with the tiles that the current builder is improving. The builder has already improved the rice (for an awesome 5 food / 2 faith tile that also picked up the Irrigation boost) and has two charges left. TheArchduke suggested moving it over to Fogger to improve the cows and truffles, both of which are also getting the Earth Goddess tile bonus. But here's the problem: it's going to take a long time to move that builder over to those tiles, and every turn spent moving is a turn not working improved tiles and not taking advantage of Craftsmanship (and therefore Agoge/Ilkum policies). At the fastest possible movement rate, the builder would improve the cows on Turn 33 and the truffles on Turn 35. That's nine more turns to finish Craftsmanship and I think that's longer than you want to wait.

Instead, I would suggest improving the deer (Turn 28) and then the horses (Turn 30) at the capital. This delivers the Craftsmanship bonus five turns sooner and sets up a switch into Agoge + Urban Planning in time to line up with Fogger finishing its Lavra and switching over to some military units. It also gives the capital three excellent base tiles to work (rice + deer + horses) which combine for +6 food surplus, 5 production, and rapid growth onto the 1/3/2 faith forested plains hills tiles thereafter. True, you lose out on some faith by not working the cattle tile at Fogger but keep in mind that you can't actually *DO* anything with the faith just yet. It's better to accelerate your development by finishing Craftsmanship sooner and getting the tile improvements themselves done sooner. There are even barbarians roaming around Fogger which might make it tricky to get tile improvements down over there. You can improve Fogger's tiles with the second builder which will come out of Fogger after it gets out some military units for defense/exploration.

The deer camp at the capital is also useful because it adds another 2 gold/turn income, and that speeds you along to 240 gold faster. I think you can get there in 5-6 more turns and the monument purchase will be critical in speeding up your cultural output. I disagree on purchasing a shrine and waiting for Choral Music to kick in for the double culture/faith bonus; you need to improve your culture ASAP and it's better to get the monument in place on Turn 32 than wait for the shrine on Turn 38. (Plus you can always cash-rush or build the shrine later if desired.) Slow culture is a problem at the moment and I think you need to snowball it ahead immediately, not wait for your religion to get founded.

Finally, I feel the same way about science which is also lagging a bit. Why research Mining tech right now - is there a particular goal in mind there (?) I would head straight for Writing right now and swap off the tech if you get 60% of the beakers invested, with the goal of placing and locking in a cheap Campus as soon as you meet someone. This is a luscious start with tremendous longterm potential, but you do need to keep accelerating the early game with faster culture and beakers. These would therefore be my suggestions:

1) Improve your resources at the capital first for Turn 30 Craftsmanship
2) This unlocks Agoge to boost Fogger as it produces a few military units
3) Purchase a monument at Fogger immediately once you have 240 gold (should be Turn 31-32)
4) Research Writing to place a Campus ASAP and lock in the cost, then build that next in the capital after a settler for Funky

Obvious this is your game so feel free to disagree!

If I keep the worker at Hell March, which does make quite a bit of sense, this opens the question on how to improve Fogger. I think buying the builder would make more sense. I could handbuild the monument. I fear however that you are right. Culture is the big snowball as Alhambram has adeptly shown. It opens Government with better cards and especially governours. We need to establish Pingala as soon as we can in a big city (Funky comes to mind) to boost our science ASAP. So yeah, you are calling me out on a stupid SP move here.

On the other hand, I already switched over to Pottery (2t). I did the screenies during my turn and not at the end of it. I need to stop that.

I think the best way to go about a farmer´s gambit is 1 warrior, 1 slinger for barb camps, 1 scout for scouting and then 2 slingers for additional barbs and settler escorts. I am also rather tempted to plan out a possible Temple of Artemis as it boosts amenities, housing and food across the board and would further augment Pingala.

Magnus is not the no-brainer anymore and with earth goddess we probably do not want to chop forests quite so fast. I am tempted to leave him be for now.

So the next important question is which Governour do we take?

[williams482]

We have four governor promotions coming up in the relatively near future: State Workforce, Early Empire, Government Plaza, and Ancestral Hall. The end result of that should almost certainly be Liang I + Pingala III, as we don't plan on chopping much of anything early and Funky is going to grow like a weed.

We'd prefer that our next builder have four charges, for cows/pigs/silks/horses at Fogger, so that points to Liang as the most immediately useful. We'll get the next one very shortly after that, with the following two dependent on how long it takes to throw down the Government Plaza.

On that note, are we sure we want our second district at Hell March to be a campus? The spices and irrigated rice (and maybe harvesting that wheat) should help things along, but there will still be a substantial delay between pop4 and pop7, and getting that Pingala science promotion faster is likely to yield more science than a +3 campus in a roughly similar timeframe. We also want to get Ancestral Hall out as fast as possible for the production bonus and free builder on our post-Funky settlers. Finally, Fogger can put a campus on that tile just about as easily, and unlike Hell March, doesn't really have a good alternative location.

[TheArchduke]

We have four governor promotions coming up in the relatively near future: State Workforce, Early Empire, Government Plaza, and Ancestral Hall. The end result of that should almost certainly be Liang I + Pingala III, as we don't plan on chopping much of anything early and Funky is going to grow like a weed.

We'd prefer that our next builder have four charges, for cows/pigs/silks/horses at Fogger, so that points to Liang as the most immediately useful. We'll get the next one very shortly after that, with the following two dependent on how long it takes to throw down the Government Plaza.

On that note, are we sure we want our second district at Hell March to be a campus? The spices and irrigated rice (and maybe harvesting that wheat) should help things along, but there will still be a substantial delay between pop4 and pop7, and getting that Pingala science promotion faster is likely to yield more science than a +3 campus in a roughly similar timeframe. We also want to get Ancestral Hall out as fast as possible for the production bonus and free builder on our post-Funky settlers. Finally, Fogger can put a campus on that tile just about as easily, and unlike Hell March, doesn't really have a good alternative location.

There is also a very good point to be made that we should get a third city and then get Ancestral Hall at Hell March for an insane Settler Push come the gold age.
I still think Funky is a great choice, but perhaps a more appealing location with more faith by the pantheon would be better? The free builders are probably too good to pass up.

Right now I am thinking about a possible ToA location if we can squeeze it in somewhere. For that our slinger will chase the leftover barb scout.

Turn 27

   

I move and promote the warrior west. What a great location thanks to another truffles. We really have some prime real estate, quite contrary to the hellhole of PBEM 16. 

I think I am going to let the warrior scout NW and then cycle back to Hell March, or should I use both units to get rid of the barb camp in the desert?

Hell March starts a settler for a superearly 3rd city.

[williams482]

If we're sold on Funky as the next city location (and I know I am) then we probably need to prioritize getting military between that location and the barb camp. The terrain is bad enough that your warrior needs to be moving that way pretty much immediately to get there in time, and the space he would otherwise be scouting should be easily reachable by a unit out of Fogger anyway.

A single slinger against a barb camp is dicey anyway, especially with Agoge in instead of the anti-barb card.

[Sullla]

There are a couple of things here where williams482 and I have differing views:

* I definitely think that Campus next is the preferred build for the capital. It's largely another issue of early game timing: State Workforce is not going to be done researching in time to go onto the Government Plaza as the next build, and I don't think that waiting for State Workforce to finish is a great idea. By all means do grab Pingala first and stick him in the capital for the +15% science/culture and be prepared to promote him again for the flat science/culture as more governor promotions come in. But overall, I think this empire is crying out for more science and avoiding an early +3 adjacency Campus district (when they are the cheapest and fastest to build) strikes me as a mistake.

* I also think that there isn't a need to recall the warrior on the Amur River for barb defense. Assuming that Fogger is going to train a military unit next (warrior probably?), there will be a slinger + warrior pair by the time that the settler comes out, and that should be sufficient to escort a settler to the nearby Funky spot. There's a real need to find more map information over to the west along with any city states that might be over there, and the warrior off in that direction is the best opportunity to do that exploring.

* Just so that I can disagree with TheArchduke as well, I'd suggest ignoring Temple of Artemis. There are too many other priorities to emphasize with this start - I don't think it's worth the effort. Maybe in 50-70 turns if no one else builds it but there are higher priorities and wonders are dubious targets with six other players competing for them.

[williams482]

Some very rough micro on our current culture generation:
t27: +2.1 Culture/turn, Foreign Trade 18.1/40
t30: Fogger grows, picks up silks, completes Lavra. +3.4, FT 24.4/40
t32: Hell grows, monument in fogger. +5.7, FT 31.2/40
t34: FT completes, 2.6 overflow. +5.7, State Workforce 30.6/70
~t36: Settler completes, Hell loses a pop, Fogger gains a pop (probably not simultaneous, but close)
~t41: Funky founded, Hell gains a pop, State Workforce completes (70.5/70). +6.3, Early Empire 28.5/70

So I'm seeing five, maybe six turns between Hell March completing the settler and being able to start the Plaza. There's also four turns of production on Fogger where policy cards will not come into play. What if we use that to get a jump on a builder (currently 54 hammers, would take 8 turns (t38) at 7 hammers/turn), and use it to at least harvest the wheat at that campus spot into Hell March? We'd wind up delaying the campus by 4 turns to get the builder out and onto the wheat, time we could spend cranking out a couple slingers with Agoge, and we'll grow an extra pop to get the Plaza available faster.

Or, we could go Settler (t36) -> Builder (t42) at the capital, crank military at Fogger until the builder harvests the wheat into Fogger (t45), and start on the Plaza in Hell March (start t42) and the Campus in Fogger (start t45) in close succession. The plaza will add +2 adjacency to the campus (+1 innate plaza boost, +1 for second district), so the losses in science from the later campus will be partially mitigated by getting the extra adjacency faster, plus the earlier settler boost and free builders. Finally, there is the long term benefit that Fogger really doesn't have any other good campus spots, while Hell March can get a +3/4 pretty easily.

I suspect Sullla's straightforward "do good thing ASAP" plan is the smart one, but I like that second approach too. Keep in mind that timing of when we unlock the campus and plaza is important: we can get the discount on whichever we place first, if and only if the other is not unlocked yet.

[TheArchduke]

There are a couple of things here where williams482 and I have differing views:

* I definitely think that Campus next is the preferred build for the capital. It's largely another issue of early game timing: State Workforce is not going to be done researching in time to go onto the Government Plaza as the next build, and I don't think that waiting for State Workforce to finish is a great idea. By all means do grab Pingala first and stick him in the capital for the +15% science/culture and be prepared to promote him again for the flat science/culture as more governor promotions come in. But overall, I think this empire is crying out for more science and avoiding an early +3 adjacency Campus district (when they are the cheapest and fastest to build) strikes me as a mistake.

* I also think that there isn't a need to recall the warrior on the Amur River for barb defense. Assuming that Fogger is going to train a military unit next (warrior probably?), there will be a slinger + warrior pair by the time that the settler comes out, and that should be sufficient to escort a settler to the nearby Funky spot. There's a real need to find more map information over to the west along with any city states that might be over there, and the warrior off in that direction is the best opportunity to do that exploring.

* Just so that I can disagree with TheArchduke as well, I'd suggest ignoring Temple of Artemis. There are too many other priorities to emphasize with this start - I don't think it's worth the effort. Maybe in 50-70 turns if no one else builds it but there are higher priorities and wonders are dubious targets with six other players competing for them.

I am leaning towards a second slinger, two slingers can easily take care of a barb camp. But if horses spawn, we need a warrior. I think the scouting hole that is our west is a high priority as well.

You can persuade me off ToA as it is a big investment (we do have an industrial CS). I am still off a mind to do a holy site project though, but once again, you are right to call me out on bs moves that I sometimes dream up.

Some very rough micro on our current culture generation:
t27: +2.1 Culture/turn, Foreign Trade 18.1/40
t30: Fogger grows, picks up silks, completes Lavra. +3.4, FT 24.4/40
t32: Hell grows, monument in fogger. +5.7, FT 31.2/40
t34: FT completes, 2.6 overflow. +5.7, State Workforce 30.6/70
~t36: Settler completes, Hell loses a pop, Fogger gains a pop (probably not simultaneous, but close)
~t41: Funky founded, Hell gains a pop, State Workforce completes (70.5/70). +6.3, Early Empire 28.5/70

So I'm seeing five, maybe six turns between Hell March completing the settler and being able to start the Plaza. There's also four turns of production on Fogger where policy cards will not come into play. What if we use that to get a jump on a builder (currently 54 hammers, would take 8 turns (t38) at 7 hammers/turn), and use it to at least harvest the wheat at that campus spot into Hell March? We'd wind up delaying the campus by 4 turns to get the builder out and onto the wheat, time we could spend cranking out a couple slingers with Agoge, and we'll grow an extra pop to get the Plaza available faster.

Or, we could go Settler (t36) -> Builder (t42) at the capital, crank military at Fogger until the builder harvests the wheat into Fogger (t45), and start on the Plaza in Hell March (start t42) and the Campus in Fogger (start t45) in close succession. The plaza will add +2 adjacency to the campus (+1 innate plaza boost, +1 for second district), so the losses in science from the later campus will be partially mitigated by getting the extra adjacency faster, plus the earlier settler boost and free builders. Finally, there is the long term benefit that Fogger really doesn't have any other good campus spots, while Hell March can get a +3/4 pretty easily.

I suspect Sullla's straightforward "do good thing ASAP" plan is the smart one, but I like that second approach too. Keep in mind that timing of when we unlock the campus and plaza is important: we can get the discount on whichever we place first, if and only if the other is not unlocked yet.

Another builder could give Funky Swamp a headstart as well. I like the idea.

[TheArchduke]

TURN 28

   

I had a quick notion of buying a builder next turn. But the monument is more crucial and I have no irrigation yet. More extensive reporting after the 24th!

[TheArchduke]

Phew, the last turn was a long time ago. 

Turn 29

is actually a rather lowburn turn. Next turn we finish Craftsmanship, a second Lavra and then we get going finally.

Our slinger turns around to protect our new improvements. The scout will have to be dealt with a new unit out of Fogger.