What happens if >300 troops try to land on a planet? How many of them participate in the ground combat?
What happens if > max pop remains after the battle on a planet? Do they die immediately? Or does the player get a chance to offload them? Does the excess over max pop die by next turn?
I am looking for sure answers from MOO1. Verified by save game. Please state MOO1 version you tested. Looking for data for Dominus Galaxia development. I don't have a MOO1 end game save handy to test now.
Thanks,
Hi, WhiteMage! Can you tell us how this will this help for DG development?
(January 14th, 2020, 00:15)WhiteMage Wrote: What happens if >300 troops try to land on a planet?
Assuming that you (the invader) control the planet's skies or that you still have >300 trying to land after each stack runs the guantlet of the planet's defenses, the excess transports are all destroyed. On the ground combat screen, the game will actually tell you, "300 out of 560 Sakkra transports penetrate Bulrathi defenses" (replace the number of transports due to arrive and the races involved as appropriate) as though the excess had been shot down by the defender's missile bases and/or ships (even though there are none).
Quote:How many of them participate in the ground combat?
300.
Quote:What happens if > max pop remains after the battle on a planet? Do they die immediately?
Yes, the survivors beyond the planet's (current actual) size all die immediately. Note however that pollution may cause a planet's "max pop" as displayed on the command screen to be less than its actual size, as displayed on the planet detail screen (the one with a big picture of the planet and the star in the background). In this case, you can have a planet with a population higher than the displayed "max pop" (on the command screen) temporarily.
Quote:Or does the player get a chance to offload them? Does the excess over max pop die by next turn?
Nope, there's no grace period. Victorious invaders in excess of the planet's size suck vacuum and disappear before you get contol of the game back to do anything about them.
Quote:Please state MOO1 version you tested.
These answers apply equally to v1.3 and kyrub's 1.40M patch, and since 1oom is basically a straight port of the code, I'm certain it also applies there. I don't know about versions prior to 1.3.
Quote:I don't have a MOO1 end game save handy to test now.
There are lots of late-enough-to-test-this-for-yourself save files around here if you want one; try the last few pages of any of our OSG threads. OSG-34 is still the top sticky on this subforum, for instance.
(January 16th, 2020, 06:34)RefSteel Wrote: Hi, WhiteMage! Can you tell us how this will this help for DG development?
DG currently has an exploit problem with sending too many troops to overtake a planet by ground combat. Especially problematic for capitals and for combat transporters tech. We are discussing options to change the rule before we code it. As always, our first consideration is how it was implemented in MOO1. If it was good enough, we keep it. If there is opportunity to improve then we discuss options and decide which one to code.
Thanks for the answers. More questions.
What happens if the planet's max pop is <300? Does the attacker get to land 300 to fight the ground combat?
Can the defender do the same to land its own troops up to 300 to fight for that 1 turn only?
What happens if 3 hostile forces meet on ground in the same turn? Does the "first" attacker fight the defender, then the "second" attacker fight the remaining troops instead of the 2 attackers fighting each other for the right to invade? What is the order of the 2-way ground battles for the same planet? Who is the first to land? Are the races ordered to land/act in same turn like in the game setup (Human, Mrrshan, ..., Darlok)? Same question for space battles. What is their order if >2 meet in space?
(January 16th, 2020, 09:34)WhiteMage Wrote: Thanks for the answers. More questions.
You're welcome! And thanks for answering mine too! It sounds like you guys have a good process.
Quote:What happens if the planet's max pop is <300? Does the attacker get to land 300 to fight the ground combat?
Yes, the invader can land up to 300 troops regardless of the size of the planet.
Quote:Can the defender do the same to land its own troops up to 300 to fight for that 1 turn only?
No, the total number of defenders is limited to the planet's size; any excess are lost before combat begins.
Quote:What happens if 3 hostile forces meet on ground in the same turn? Does the "first" attacker fight the defender, then the "second" attacker fight the remaining troops instead of the 2 attackers fighting each other for the right to invade?
Yes, that is correct; and if the first attacker wins the battle, the surviving invaders become defending troops against the full force of the second attacker! So if I invade a size-10 world with 300 transports and lose only 5 taking over the planet, but another AI's transports are arriving on the same turn, I get the +5 defender ground combat bonus to help fend off all the transports from the "second attacker" but first, I lose 285 troops to overpopulation, because the number of the defender's troops is limited to the planet size!
Quote:What is the order of the 2-way ground battles for the same planet?
I intend to answer this in depth, to the extent of my knowledge (which is extensive on this subject due to significant testing, including in my first-ever SG, but not complete) but I can probably save you some time and trouble here: The answer to the question of whether DG should handle this part in the same way original MoO did - especially for multiple fleets meeting - is: No.
Quote:Who is the first to land? Are the races ordered to land/act in same turn like in the game setup (Human, Mrrshan, ..., Darlok)?
The invaders land in what I'll call "side number order," which differs from one map to the next, but is determined when the map is rolled and stays consistent throughout the game. The easiest way to see the order for a given galaxy in-game is on the Map screen, where races are listed in that map's "side number order" from top to bottom (when the default "Colonies" button is active).
The way this order is actually determined: When you create a new game in MoO, you choose the number of opponents, and choose your race. Your race then becomes Side 0, and the game chooses one of the other races at random to be Side 1. If you chose to have more than one opponent, the game then chooses another of the remaining races at random to be Side 2, and repeats until it has given you as many opponents as you requested during game setup.
In MoO, all battles always have an "attacker" and a "defender." In ground combat, the side that currently owns the planet (updated after each ground battle) is always the "defender." If no one has any population on the planet, then there is no colony base and transports can't land, so all transports arriving at the planet, no matter from whom, are destroyed! Note that a ground battle will never end with both sides (and therefore the colony) destroyed because each combat round destroys one troop from one side or the other, never both.
The defender's transports always arrive first. An attacker therefore has to deal with all the defender's troops already "dug in" (with the +5 defensive bonus) but any of the defender's reinforcing transports that would bring the planet's population above its size are lost prior to combat, so they can't counter-invade if the ground troops lose, nor refill a previously-full planet that lost population in battle.
Then the attacking transports arrive in side-number order. The Player is always "side 0" so the Player's invasions always "land first" (and, if they win, must then face the counter-invasions of any and all other attackers). Then side 1's transports (if any) arrive to attack whoever won the battle (now the defender, whether they were before or not) and so on up to side 5. In theory, a planet could change hands 5 times (with each player except the original defender potentially looting techs from the previous defender if factories are present) in the same turn!
Finally: If the attacker and defender are allied (neither a NAP nor a Peace Treaty will stop transports) then combat does not occur: The attacker's transports all evaporate without any combat, and without even a message saying that they have been destroyed! Suppose the player founds a colony and sends a hundred transports to stand it up. While they are en route, an enemy race glasses the colony, and a race allied to the Player founds a new colony there. The enemy race gets a fleet in orbit and sends transports due to arrive on the same turn as the Player's. If the alliance isn't broken first, the Player's transports will arrive and evaporate because their ally is the defender. Then the enemy transports arrive and take over the planet! The Player's transports can't counter-invade because they're already gone! This situation can also crop up here:
Quote:Same question for space battles. What is their order if >2 meet in space?
Once again, there is always an attacker and defender, and the defender is chosen first. If the battle occurs at a planet with a colony, then the owner of the colony is the defender as long as that player has a fleet or missile base(s) present. In this case, the planet (with missile bases if any are present) will take part in the battle and be subject to attack; otherwise, the "defender" is whichever fleet comes first in side-number order (so it's always the Player's - side 0's - if present) and no planet is involved, whether there's a colony at the star or not. This is why when your fleet meets another race's fleet in neutral space (or over a third party's colony) the game always reports it as, "[AI race] attacks [Player race]" and never the other way around.
The first attacker is then whichever fleet comes first in side-number order apart from the defender. This means if the Player attacks a planet at the same time as another AI (or four) the Player's fleet must fight the defender's entire force and then hold off each of the other AI fleets that are present, one by one, in order to gain control of the planet's orbit. Side 5, on the other hand, need only defeat the remnants of whichever fleet won the rest of the scrum if all sides were present.
Okay, but here's where it gets really weird:
If for any reason an attacker's fleet would not fight a defender's fleet (either because they're allied, or because neither has a colony at the star where they meet and they have a NAP, or because the attacker is an AI and the defender is the Player and they have a Peace Treaty, in which case the AI fleet also "retreats" toward its nearest owned star) then no combat occurs between them; the defender goes on being the defender while the other races attack in side-number order if any are present. But the game only goes through the possible attackers once for each planet each turn!
Suppose the Player has a NAP with side 1, and meets fleets for each of sides 1 and 2 at a colony belonging to side 3. The Player (side 0) attacks the colony first and defeats the defending fleet and/or bases. At that point, the Player becomes the defender. Side 1 refuses combat because of the NAP, and then side 2 attacks the Player. If side 2 wins, its ships will coexist with side 1's ships at that star for a turn without combat, and can even both hit side 3's planet with Orbital Bombardment, even though they have no alliance and no NAP, because side 1 has already passed up its chance at combat (with the Player)! Worse still, if the Player is Allied with any AI and tries to help defend worlds belonging to that ally against enemy fleets, it only works if the AI ally has no fleet or bases at the planet! If the AI ally has even a Scout, that AI is the defender, the Player automatically declines to attack, and the AI ally remains the defender while another AI attacks. Then, if the other AI wins, the player doesn't even have a chance to attack the victorious enemy! If the AI ally has no defenders though, then the Player will be the defender instead (as side 0) and can fight any and all attackers without even giving their bombers or sporers a target to hit.
And here's something I don't know for sure, and doubt if I can test: Suppose I send a bomber fleet to a planet belonging to side 3, where there's a large defensive fleet, and my bombers arrive at the same time as a fleet from side 1 and another from side 2. If I manage to glass the colony from the combat screen but my bombers then retreat (or are destroyed by the enemy fleet) is the next fight an attack by side 1 on side 3 (because the latter won the first battle and therefore remains the defender) or an attack by side 2 on side 1 (because no one owns a colony in the system anymore and side 1 is first in side-number order among the remaining players)? I think side 1 attacks side 3, and side 2 attacks the winner, but I could be wrong!
By the way: I believe in the latest 1oom builds posted by RFS-81 (including the one for ignatius's fork) the Player can choose to have any side number, and let an AI be side 0. If so, this would have a number of interesting consequences - not only for combat order (side-number order also affects the High Council elections, among other things...) - and would allow for additional testing if anyone wanted to go even deeper down this rabbit hole than I have!
(January 16th, 2020, 09:34)WhiteMage Wrote: Thanks for the thorough answers.
I supposed multiple fleets orbiting the same planet for whatever reason also automatically fire on all landing transports unless they are allied to that player. Right?
(January 18th, 2020, 17:32)WhiteMage Wrote: I supposed multiple fleets orbiting the same planet for whatever reason also automatically fire on all landing transports unless they are allied to that player. Right?
Basically right: Allies don't fire at one another's transports, and fleets always fire on transports with which they have no treaty. I believe NAPs and Peace Treaties are different depending on the circumstances, but I don't know for sure; I may test this if I have the chance. In case my guesses are useful though, here they are in order from most to least confidence I have in them:
- A fleet over its own race's world will always fire on all incoming transports from other races (except in an Alliance, because those transports never actually attempt to land) regardless of NAP or Peace.
- A fleet over a third party's world will not fire on the transports of a race with whom they have a NAP or Peace Treaty.
- A fleet over a NAP partner's world or the world of a race with whom it's at peace does not (I think!) fire on that race's reinforcing transports? But it's possible I'm wrong ... or even that NAP and peace are different in this respect. This needs more testing (or someone with more experience with such situations than I remember having myself).
Suppose that, playing Sakkra, I destroy the missile bases at a Psilon world, and the Alkari, with whom I have a NAP, also get a fleet in orbit there and send transports, which arrive before mine do. If I'm right, my fleet lets their transports through unmolested, and then if they win the ground battle and my fleet leaves (or stays in violation of the NAP and then is defeated by theirs) their fleet will fire on my transports in spite of the NAP.
Thanks. Makes sense. I am looking for sure answers. You already gave me enough. These remaining details are not that important now. So don't spend time on testing this just for me.
