[SPOILER] - Suboptimal finds trees, still seeks forest

[suboptimal]

Let's see..

I took an in-depth look at the copper site. I'm not entirely sold on it. The A-2 location can harvest the marsh to gain a pop or two immedaiately then use the sheep to grow early and then harvest to gain a population after it gets to Pop 4 or 5. I think mining the copper is better than settling on it as with a mine + Apprenticeship that's a 234 tile. With a Harbor, Aqueduct on the sheep and Campus on the marsh the Campus and Harbor would both be +4. A-2 also captures tea SW of the sheep, giving a 2112 yield. (Picker would go tea -> copper -> bananas). The copper location loses the tea and the Campus location next to the volcano would have to be purchased.

As far as the settler count goes, assuming we conquer Khmer we'd be at 7 cities with the next settler costing 170. I think in the "must have" city locations we've got:

- one city location north of Wealth of Nations
- Marshed
- the Dauphinoise coast for commerce (10 available between a Harbor and the crabs)
- location northeast of Mashed that can get the wines and a good Campus location. Whether or not it needs to be coastal can be determined...after we find iron.
- There's no production but all that desert wheat NE of Wealth of Nations is screaming for a city and either some Nazca Line spam or Petra.

If we're in a position to follow the SP maxim of "if you find a good city location then build a settler" then perhaps the river that we just defogged and the site north of Marshed get added to the list. That's 6. Of course, we also don't know what's south of Conquest of Paradise. For a settler push in the 70's/80's we'd probably have 3-4 cities that could push out settlers (Mashed, Dauphinoise, A-1 and perhaps Wealth of Nations once improved).

As far as double-promoting Magnus goes, was that something that was done in the earlier R&F PBEMs by the opposition? That strikes me more as an SP-type strat rather than MP because those games almost demand settler spam (settle 12-13 cities). Looking at the first six promotions (two Ancient, two Classical, GP + Tier 1) I'd put three into Pingala and one into Liang. That does leave two for Magnus, but is there a better use for the promotion? For instance, using Amani to get temporary suzerainty of Nazca would let us put a Nazca lines on the flat desert between the diamonds and bananas at Dauphinoise. That's 8 that could be used to build up for faith purchases later (be they religious or for units under Theology). In the event of war, suzeraining Kabul (+100% XP for units) would really boost our ranged troops.

[CFCJesterFool]

Let's see..

I took an in-depth look at the copper site.  I'm not entirely sold on it.  The A-2 location can harvest the marsh to gain a pop or two immedaiately then use the sheep to grow early and then harvest to gain a population after it gets to Pop 4 or 5.  I think mining the copper is better than settling on it as with a mine + Apprenticeship that's a 234 tile.  With a Harbor, Aqueduct on the sheep and Campus on the marsh the Campus and Harbor would both be +4.  A-2 also captures tea SW of the sheep, giving a 2112 yield.  (Picker would go tea -> copper -> bananas).  The copper location loses the tea and the Campus location next to the volcano would have to be purchased.  

As far as the settler count goes, assuming we conquer Khmer we'd be at 7 cities with the next settler costing 170.  I think in the "must have" city locations we've got:

- one city location north of Wealth of Nations
- Marshed
- the Dauphinoise coast for commerce (10 available between a Harbor and the crabs)
- location northeast of Mashed that can get the wines and a good Campus location.  Whether or not it needs to be coastal can be determined...after we find iron.
- There's no production but all that desert wheat NE of Wealth of Nations is screaming for a city and either some Nazca Line spam or Petra.

If we're in a position to follow the SP maxim of "if you find a good city location then build a settler" then perhaps the river that we just defogged and the site north of Marshed get added to the list.  That's 6.  Of course, we also don't know what's south of Conquest of Paradise.  For a settler push in the 70's/80's we'd probably have 3-4 cities that could push out settlers (Mashed, Dauphinoise, A-1 and perhaps Wealth of Nations once improved).

As far as double-promoting Magnus goes, was that something that was done in the earlier R&F PBEMs by the opposition?  That strikes me more as an SP-type strat rather than MP because those games almost demand settler spam (settle 12-13 cities).  Looking at the first six promotions (two Ancient, two Classical, GP + Tier 1) I'd put three into Pingala and one into Liang.  That does leave two for Magnus, but is there a better use for the promotion?  For instance, using Amani to get temporary suzerainty of Nazca would let us put a Nazca lines on the flat desert between the diamonds and bananas at Dauphinoise.  That's 8 that could be used to build up for faith purchases later (be they religious or for units under Theology).   In the event of war, suzeraining Kabul (+100% XP for units) would really boost our ranged troops.

Ask the question of why settle cities? Districts of course. The whole purpose for Magnus' second promotion is so you don't stunt district growth in cities that can produce settlers quickly (i.e. where you can actually build districts in a timely manner.) You really want to mainly build settlers from the city with Ancestral Hall (and take advantage of the +50% bonus) anyway. Better to have a main settler pump and let your other cities focus on districts. Magnus can be moved to a secondary settler pump when the main settler pump is busy building a new district or building.

[suboptimal]

Turn 46

Campus at Mashed is complete, inspiration for State Workforce is in. Bronze Working is complete. Pindicator attacked an archer out of Wealth of Nations. The Scheldt River has flooded, but that’s out of the way. So, where is the iron? Map search turns up four hits. Two down at Khmer, south and northwest of Res Publica:




Two north/northeast of Mashed, one that is second ring to the city and one where I was thinking about putting a Campus up north:




Mashed’s tile picker has updated to the iron tile and will grab that in 9 turns. Further north, I think a city on the hill SW of the wines might be a good spot. It puts the +4 Campus location first ring, the iron will be the first cultural tile claimed and it also has a farm triangle available. It would mean that we’d still want to settle Marshed fofr western sea naval coverage. I’ll pinmap that out later. Mashed resumes its settler build, it’ll be 6 turns to completion (shows 4 but the cost goes up in a three turns). I start Masonry with the intent of getting it and Wheel to eureka + 1 before finishing Sailing.

The northern archer moves west to defog the last bit of coast around that island spit and see what else is up here. Just some crabs, inaccessible to the north. The other archer makes its way downriver. More stone, rice and floodplains, nothing on settlervision:




In the fog you can see the river delta to the south of the archer’s current position. I’ll cross the river to the hill here before continuing eastwards.

The second warrior crosses the river to the hill north of the copper while the escort one crosses to the eventual city site. Now to deal with Wealth of Nations. Because of Pindicator’s attack the garrison strength is now 16 at full strength, 13 due to damage and sits at 129/200. Blue archer is at 32 damage so needs to get out of the way. Here’s the picture:




Yellow and red archer, by themselves, will be able to do about 60 points of damage. Blue archer, moved out of the way, would do another 25. However, if I move blue archer 2NE to promote heal, shift yellow archer E and shoot with yellow & red, I could have the warrior next to the city this turn. That would let me take the city next turn even if Pindicator attacks the warrior. I’ll also move green archer SE so that it can be used to shoot the city as well. I make the moves, archers do 62 points of damage to the city and I’ll take it next turn. Green archer’s advance shows no units lurking in the woods southwest of the diamonds.

Pindicator did get another warrior out somewhere as his milpower has gone up 20. However, he hasn’t garrisoned the unit anywhere.

Given the recent discussion between Jester and myself regarding settlers and governor promotions I think some pinmapping is in order. I’ll go through each of the existing and proposed city sites, map out my thoughts on each one and then get up a post on the topic for discussion.

[CFCJesterFool]

Really liking the wine spot northeast of Mashed. It has iron, good production and easy +4 campus spot. Also, settler transit time will be quick (so will contribute quickly.) Might make sense to divert Mashed's settler to go north (need a second campus for Recorded History inspiration so that is a consideration as well.) Imo, you will probably get tired of building settlers before running out of good land to settle (especially if you get Pindicator's land as well.) Looking forward to seeing what spots you feel make sense to settle.

[suboptimal]

One detail I left out of the T46 report - the river name in the northeast (Sefin River) is on Persia's list. Since they're not in the game we're the first ones there.

Regarding my pinmaps, here you go...

Pinmaps

Here are my thoughts on current city and district placements, along with potential builds and any other thoughts I might have on the location. I’m including Wealth of Nations in this post as a foregone conclusion, for better or for worse.

One consideration to make now: policies. Currently we’re running Agoge and Colonization. Regardless of whether we keep Colonization when State Workforce completes the settler at Mashed will be done EoT51. Since we’re also not building military units I’m thinking of swapping into Conscription + Urban Planning. We may build a few builders during this time but we’d have 4-5 cities running and the extra production for each city is probably worth more than having Ilkum be effective for only a handful of turns.

Regarding techs my plan is to get Masonry, Currency, Sailing, Astrology and Wheel all to completion -1 (or eureka -1 as appropriate) in that order and then complete Currency → Masonry as they go.

Mashed




The iron will be claimed in 9 turns. The “primary” plan would be to put the Government Plaza here, mainly because there’s a tile available without needing to purchase one. That would take away a +1 adjacency for the eventual Commercial Hub as it wouldn’t be between two districts. However, I want to be able to use the stone for the Masonry eureka so don’t want to just pave that over with the Government Plaza.

An alternative to that would be to put a Commercial Hub where the Government Plaza is marked and put the plaza at Dauphinoise for that city to be the settler pump. However, if we want to do that then I think that Pingala should move to Mashed now.

The city’s next build will be a granary as it’s currently housing-limited in growth, followed by a builder for the iron, quarry and either boats on the turtles (for more food an an amenity) or harvesting the stone.

Dauphinoise




Commercial Hub and pyramid as marked. I’m not sure of what other district to put down here. One thought would be to put the Government Plaza SW of the Commercial Hub (requires a 65 tile buy). We’d be able to accumulate the gold required for the purchase (and still have gold for the battering ram) before we completed a tech or civic after State Workforce. The one potential downside is that if we decide to leave Nazca alone (or suzerain it for faith for the Khmer Holy Sites) a Nazca lines on that tile could provide +2 to each of the adjacent resources.

The city’s next build will need to be a granary to avoid slowing population growth. After that I’d probably go trader→ builder to get the Currency eureka out of the way (and a road to Khmer) and have the builder ready to put down the pyramids, mine one of the diamonds and plantation the second bananas.

Lower Atbarah River Valley




This city will found on Turn 56 and start working the marsh, followed by the jungle hills. The city would expand to the W bananas → SW bananas/rice → rice/SW bananas → cattle. It would reach 4 population EoT75 if we work the W bananas as soon as they are taken.

I’d put a Campus in the marked location rather than at the +4 spot 2E of the city center because it’d be a tile buy. Of course, if we think +1 is worth 65-70 that becomes an option. The Commercial Hub would go on the marked spot after a jungle chop.

Initial builds here would be builder → Campus since the builder would complete around the same time the city grabs the first bananas. We could then plantation the bananas, chop one of the jungle hills for and some into the Campus and then plantation the second bananas (or farm the rice) with the third builder action.

The Northeast




My current approach is this location, founded on Turn 57. It would immediately start working the wines and plant the Campus as marked. Cultural expansion would grab the iron first. The initial build would be a builder who would then plantation the wines, farm the wheat and then the grassland in the first ring (or the iron). Regardless, it’s still a bit of a slow grower. The Commercial Hub would come later. What I don’t like about this spot is that it takes away the possibility of settling that spit out to the west. Reversing the position of the Commercial Hub and city center solves that but makes the iron third ring to the city. What I need to do is have that archer defog the area north of the wines to see if there are any food resources up there.

Speaking of the spit of land, if we could settle it what could we do with it?




Interesting.

Wealth of Nations




I’m including this here because at some point we’ll need to get this city improved. Its location doesn’t really lend itself to districts given the terrain, but a +2 Harbor would be better than nothing. The city’s first build would be the monument repair and then a builder to mine all those diamonds. Our first trader, when completed, would be sent here from Dauphinoise as the city is 15 tiles away. Alternatively we could relocate the trader and start the route here to give this city a little extra food and production.

Upper Atbarah Valley




As previously discussed I prefer this location over Jester’s settlement on the copper. We’d use the sheep and marsh for early city growth and then harvest the marsh and sheep after getting to 4 population (it would take 18 turns) to make way for the Aqueduct and Campus. The Harbor is marked as a +3 but with the Aqueduct present it would actually be a +4.

”Marshed”




The Campus placement requires a tile buy or we can drop a +1 Campus one tile to the SE of the city, where it’d be safe from eruptions. Culturally it would grab the salt first, sheep second and volcanic soil third.

The Dauph Coast




This would be a filler city and one that would not put in a Campus. This city would likely spit out naval units if control of the sea needed to be contested. If Mashed & Atbarah River get settled this is the only valid city location on this part of the coast.

What Next?

Dauphinoise’s settler to the Atbarah River Mouth is the “obvious” best use of that settler. The immediate question is whether or not Mashed’s settler should go north, presumably to acquire the iron, or if it should go to Marshed. The northern location gets iron, wines and good science once the district is built but it is a slow grower in terms of population. Marshed grows faster but has less science (or more risky science).

[CFCJesterFool]

Mashed
I would have the builder improve the iron first then quarry the stone for the boost. One turn before Masonry completes, remove the quarry and harvest the stone into the government plaza once Masonry is complete. No reason to give up a +4 commercial hub. To be clear, the government plaza and commercial hub need to switch places. Imo, turtles can wait for another builder.

Dauphinoise
I'd be inclined to make a Pyramids play (NE of the pyramid marker). You could then eventually build a theatre district NW of the pyramid marker. The bare desert tile between the marsh and the diamonds could be a Petra spot if you wanted. I agree that Nazca lines would be great on the rest of the bare desert tiles. Eventually you'd want to build a +3 harbor as well.  Another option is to move the commercial hub to the coast and place a commercial hub from the Dauph coast (aqueduct) city on the other plains tile. Still want the harbor.

LARV
After thinking about it a little more, an initial +3 campus is fine.

Northeast
I'd go with both cities. Swap the city center and commercial hub. Prioritize the coastal spot (over "Marshed) to grab the iron. It would make sense to tile buy the +5 campus location when the city gets founded.

UAV

Sounds fine.

"Marshed"
Filler city imo. I'd settle this towards the end.

Dauph Coast
I like this city a lot. I'd settle this spot before "Marshed" personally. You still want to settle "Marshed" though.

The order I'd settle in would be LARV (as planned on T56),NE +4 campus spot (as planned on T57), NE coastal +5 campus spot, UAV, Dauph Coast then "Marshed".

[suboptimal]

Interesting ideas. Some comments:

Mashed: Going granary after the settler the builder will be complete well after Masonry is eureka + 1. Your idea works if we go builder first and try to time the harvest to be done on the turn the granary completes. That would require the builder going to the stone (2 turns) and putting down and removing the quarry immediately. The builder could then harvest to complete the granary and overflow into the government plaza, which would get placed on the empty tile and, if I have the numbers right, complete the following turn.

Dauphinoise

A pyramids play is interesting. MAshed would be able to clear out the forest north of there for its own Theater Square as well. At the city's current production rate it'd be a 16 turn build if we slotted Corvee and took Autocracy as the government. We'd have time to get a builder out before starting it. We could chop the forest SE of the city for about 36 base, taking about 4 more turns off the build time. We'd then either mine one of the diamonds or plantation the bananas before idling until the Pyramids were completed so we pick up the extra charge.

Regarding the +3 Harbor, that seems like a lot of input for the Harbor itself. We'd probably have to buy the coast tile and possibly one of the adjacent plains tiles and we'd already have the trade route from the Commercial Hub. The Harbor might be discounted but it won't be cheap. In the end it gets us +3, +2 if we put the Commercial Hub here (which would pretty much require the tile purchase) and....what?

Petra is also interesting, as that'd make those diamond hills much more workable.

LARV

I'm thinking that it might be better to get a galley out before the Campus in order to start exploring the sea. We might be border-blocked by Kabul just like a west-coast location gets border-blocked by Nazca.

UARV

Given the distance to Mashed I'd probably produce this settler out of Wealth of Nations while not bothering to get Magnus down there to build it.

WoN

Speaking of that city it might be worth putting down a third Holy Site down here, probably on that jungle hill. That'd put it next to a putative Harbor and we could take Feed the World as a belief to supply this city with all the food it would need to work those hills to the south and west.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

I dont' have too much comment on the micro, that's definitely your area of expertise more than mine. In general, though, I think the best policy for expansion is to concentrate on getting sites that provide the quickest possible return on investment over sites with more long-term potential that may be slower starting. With the amount of land we hope to have, we should have more good city sites than we can viably have settlers, so we want fast snowballs to let us crash our neighbors and lock up this continent ideally before some jerk (Archduke) does the same to the other continent.

Tactics look good. I wonder if pin is walking his new warrior from the capital to the front - what else could it be doing? If you get the chance to kill it in the open, that'd be fantastic. It also looks like he won't reach swords or horsemen, but remember to keep up a steady flow of units south. Better to overestimate how many archers you'll need vs. underestimate.

[suboptimal]

I didn't include the sites along the Sefin River in my pinmapping as we don't fully know what's there yet and how close it might be to any opponents in that direction. It is starting to feel like that eastern sea is a large inland one, though. Then there's also the lands around Khmer -- we don't know what's there, either. There are also spots by both Khmer iron that might be worth settling at some point (NW of the southern iron and W-SW of the northern one).

Depending on where/how Pindicator makes his stand with his warriors we should have his capital in the next 10 turns, if not his empire. He's got three warriors, one of which will die on our next turn (which won't be tonight with Pin holding the save overnight). That'll leave two warriors (one promoted), a slinger and a scout.

With the talk of expansion I've also been pondering what to do with the military. The obvious answer is "go east from Khmer". The question is whether we send archers out as scouts to find everything or send the entire battle group east (with a purchased ram) and just take whatever we run into. If we find a city-state we could take it and use that as the upgrade point (to swords & crossbows) and then invade. I do think the next invasion will need to use those units rather than continuing with archers and warriors. They'll be near obsolescence by the time we find our opponent. Alternatively do we start cranking out chariots for a Stirrups/Knight beeline?

I think Khmer will be used as our military complex as both Wealth of Nations and Conquest of Paradise have good production and are closer to our opponent than our own core. Heck, we'll be able to afford the units so perhaps I have those cities spit out warriors and archers with Agoge and then send everything east. If Pindicator doesn't complete the Holy Site as Res Publica we'll also need to decide whether or not religion will play a part in the game.

So, assuming the Khmer conquest is successful, the strat outline seems to be:

- Mashed turns into a settler pump, stopping to build out districts as needed (Gov Plaza, Comm Hub, Library, Market, Ancestral Hall, not in that order)
- Dauphinoise will build the Pyramids, followed by a Comm Hub, Petra and eventually a Theater District
- The north will focus on and
- Khmer will become our military production center and start spitting out units (and few builders). Perhaps an Encampment at CoP?
- Find the eastern opponent(s) and attempt to conquer one of them when we have crossbows and swords.

We'll have a few eurekas and inspirations to squeeze in and should work towards a Golden Age in time for the Medieval. Conquering Pindicator after Turn 60 (5 era points), building a Nubian pyramid (4 era points) and attempting to be the first to the Classical in the tech tree (Currency, 3 points) should get us half way there.

[suboptimal]

I didn't forget, but I needed extra time with that turn. I'll be sure to post here next time it happens, as I'm sure it will

I don't think he can pull a rabbit out of a hat to save Wealth of Nations. I do think he's trying to set up some sort of defensive front between there and the rest of his cities. Hopefully when we take the city the border visibility will show us what's occurring.