[SPOILER] - Suboptimal finds trees, still seeks forest

[CFCJesterFool]

I'd wait to get the envoy with Kabul until you can slot in the Diplomatic League policy card. This would mean you'd gain two envoys but wouldn't have to do a second quest (that may not even be possible) next era to get the second envoy. Depending on when the era changes (i.e. before or after Political Philosophy has been completed), you might get a chance next era to gain a third envoy if you end up getting a completable quest (which assumes Political Philosophy is completed before the era change). Imo, pretty important to try to maximize free envoys.

I think buying the tile Alhambram's warrior is standing on is tactically sound. He can't declare for five more turns (and obviously you don't want to declare on him) but he can impede the conquest of Pindicator's capital. In this case, I think spending gold to "clear" the way is reasonable. The only consideration is whether spending the gold might delay being able to purchase a battering ram. It is possible that a battering ram might not even be needed against Pindicator.

[suboptimal]

Good point about running Diplomatic League. With finding the third city-state we should be able to complete Political Philosophy before the era turns, letting us get two envoys in there and a new quest for the Classical Age.

Well, as I noted, the 65 would take five turns to recoup at the current income. We start Turn 49 with 279, pay 65 and are at 224. Three turns later we're back at the 260 required for a battering ram purchase. I think moving the Maris Piper southwest to the border tile next turn and then buying the tile the following turn (State Workforce won't impact the cost) is the way to go as we'd be able to immediately move into the tile with full knowledge of what we're moving into. After looking at the situation I think purchasing the tile that Pindicator's warrior is on is actually more critical to have visibility with - it is currently the most critical tile for us on the field of battle, imho:




A unit, standing where Pindicator's warrior is standing, can see all of the tiles marked with a red dot (I didn't mark the jungle hill to the NE because that's not a concern). An archer can shoot at anything it can see. Ergo, an archer on that hill can see and shoot at anything coming towards it before that something gets there. More importantly, that something can only attack the archer if it starts the turn adjacent to that hill. Our archers would be defending at 23 to start out with. If we can get Maris Piper on that hill I think we can control the battlefield. That unit, when attacking, is CS 42 against all land units. A warrior on a forested hill will take an average of 56 points of damage from one hit, while a warrior out in the open is taking 72. A warrior that takes that type of damage cannot afford to counterattack as it would die. Granted, Pindicator might suicide-attack anyways, but if Maris gets damaged then I swap out for one of the Volley-promoted archers. One note - he doesn't yet know that one of the archers is Level 2. The last he saw I had two level 1 archers up there.

I think the thing to do here is to advance Maris Piper to the jungle hill next turn. On Turn 50 I buy the tile and then move archers to any tile (the purchased one or the one NW of it) that is not adjacent to three warriors. The only way an archer would die outright is if the promoted warrior has Battlecry and that warrior plus two others attack the same archer. In all other circumstances an uninjured archer would survive the assault and be able to retreat (and be replaced by a fresh one). Two warriors attacking would take more damage than they give (take 34 and 31, give 27 and 29) and a fresh archer would have a bit less of an issue (and we're in friendly territory to heal).

Right now I estimate his army consists of four warriors (the one under 20 damage left, three fully healed), a slinger and a scout. One of the warriors is promoted, likely Battlecry, and that's the one we need to make certain we can kill. We know the scout is well off to the east by now and that there’s at least one fully healed warrior somewhere adjacent to the wounded one. As for the other two, one is likely near Res Publica (having just been built) and the other is probably first-ring to Conquest of Paradise. Pindicator is likely able to build a new warrior every 3-4 turns with Agoge running at CoP. Res Publica is much slower as the city only appears capable of 4 per turn.

[suboptimal]

This is my first attempt at finding the forest and laying out "The Game Planne ™". Here goes nothing:

Finding Forest

So, we now know that our neighbors are Pindicator and Alhambram, with the former being hopefully abolished to the history books over the next 20 turns. It appears that we are on quite a large landmass, likely one that could support four civs comfortably. That works to our benefit and possibly our detriment. What follows is under the assumption we are able to complete the Khmer conquest.

Here’s my first draft at finding the forest. Feel free to comment.

Setting Up for a Win

Military Route

CMF laid out possible military route – cripple or kill any other neighbors and then gain control of the seas to isolate the other landmass and hopefully landlock them as was done previously. This sort of plays into (and against) Australia’s main benefit of treating coast as fresh water. A navy of sufficient size would be able to do serious damage to Alhambram’s possibilities by controlling his coast and preventing his use of that ability. Likewise the ability of the other players to invest in a navy while dealing with three other opponents may be limited. So, what would our path be?

We’d need coastal cities, preferably two on each coast, to produce naval units in reasonable times. We’d need sufficient science to work the tech tree in a “wide” manner – running for the land military techs for defense while getting the naval techs at the top of tree. Build a couple of galleys for scouting, crank out a quadrireme fleet and then use our commerce to upgrade and attack Australia’s coastal cities to try to land a crippling blow.

On the east coast our city placements have the LARV going down on Turn 56. This would be our first coastal city and could get our initial builds going. The Dauph Coast location would be a second shipyard location for this sea. Conquering the as-yet-a-mystery city-state up north could be a third if it has sufficient production around it.

On the west coast we have a less of a choice. The Marshed location would be able to support a manufacturing city given the presence of several 2 yield tiles with food and the mineable resource nearby. We might be initially border-blocked by Nazca but that can be surmounted by suzerainty or taking the city. Beyond that we don’t have good choices for a naval production city. The northern spit is more of a commerce location and the possible city location north of Marshed is just a filler with no production potential. A second ring Harbor at Mashed would be a bad solution to the problem and one that could not be done until it was 10 population. A possibility to be explored would be to see what’s west and northwest of Khmer. There’s not only an outside chance of a city-state being there but the coast remains unexplored. The area just west of the southern iron there might be a good spot if there are forests or hills.

On land I don’t consider our prospects for a land-based invasion as being good. Alhambram has quite a science lead on us, likely from a high Appeal, reef-adjacent Campus. He’ll increase that gap as we work to catch up from our conquest-first approach. I think our best case here would be to use the LARV-Khmer front as a defensive land bastion, seeking to put in chokepoints in the Ogaden Desert and whatever lays to the east of Conquest of Paradise using Encampments and maintaining a significant defensive land presence here.

Non-Military Option

I’ve been thinking about what non-military approaches would there be to winning the game. The two that stand out are religious and cultural victory. Cultural would be the easier of the two (not that either is “easy” in an MP situation) but the good news there is that religious infrastructure and the threat of a religion win chase feeds into a cultural one.

The idea here would be to attempt the Suicide Squad relic play. This involves building up Holy Sites through to temples, founding a religion and taking the Reliquaries belief (tourism and faith generation from relics are tripled) and securing the Mont St. Michel wonder to give all apostles the martyr promotion. They would then run into opposition territory to either start converting cities (to threaten a religious victory) or die, creating a relic. If this can be done fast enough and before The Enlightenment is completed by any opponents, it might be possible to pull this off. That would involve getting Holy Sites down at various city locations and then building them out. All three city locations in Khmer are OK (they’re all +1 adjacency) and the northeast location has a +2 spot on top of the geothermal fissure. That city location also has the marsh necessary for Mont St Michel though notably the wonder does not need to be built next to a Holy Site. For this approach a city to the east of the Northeast location would be desireable because of the harvestable production to get down another Holy Site.

This approach would then need to utilize late-game Theater Districts to put down Archaelogical Museums as well as seaside resorts to generate late-game culture. Filler cities around deserts might be usable to combine Theater Squares, Nubian Pyramids (culture, faith, tourism) and Nazca Lines (faith) in the late game.

The biggest challenge is making the investments necessary in order to generate enough faith to supply apostles. To that end the religious beliefs would be Reliquaries + Church Property to start and the evangelize to get Holy Order for the 30% purchase discount. We’d also look to suzerain Nazca and attempt to use Nazca lines in conjunction with Nubian Pyramids.

The other challenge is the tourism calculation – foreign tourists are more “expensive” the more players are in the game. Not saying it can’t be done, it’s just a higher hurdle to clear.

By the way, after looking at the Prasat’s abilities I have to wonder if Pindicator was trying this approach rather than the Feed the World and grow tall approach. Getting relics out of missionaries instead of apostles is early enough where it would be quite feasible.

Do They Work Together

Yes, I think that they can be made to work together:

Cities: In addition to our current three plus the remaining two Khmer cities we’d settle, at a minimum, LARV, Northeast, Marshed, UARV, City-State West, City-State North and Spit. Late-game fillers for desert Theaters would be the Dauph Coast, a city north of Marshed, the spit in the far north plus one or two cities on the western shore of the Lakshadweep Sea. Total settlers required: 5 for the push starting with Marshed, 3-4 later on in the game for fillers.

Districts: Coastal locations prioritize Campus and Harbor Districts with Holy Sites (generally) as the third district. Non-coastal locations prioritize Campus and Holy Site with Theater District third. LARV, CoP and UARV build Encampments in place of Campus districts. Mashed builds a +4 Holy Site instead of a +4 Commercial Hub, Dauphinoise builds a Commercial Hub, LARV builds Campus, Harbor and Encampment, Northeast Campus and Holy Site. Harbors would get lighthouses and eventually shipyards, Commercial Hubs would get markets, Holy Sites would get shrines and temples, Campus would be fully built out.

Wonders: Pyramids at Dauphinoise for the builder charges. Mont St Michel at Northeast, partially built by clear-cutting the forests northeast of the city. If we were to find ourselves in need of lolz then we’d plant a tundra filler city and chop out St. Basil’s Cathedral.

Units: Large land unit presence in former Khmer lands, smaller unit presence in the north. Powerful navies on both coasts.

The Setup

How to set this up? First off I’d change the district placement and general plan at LARV. I’d start out with a builder and working high food tiles while slow-rolling techs (and civics) as much as possible. Once the builder was out I’d harvest the marsh east of the city and put the Campus there (+2 adjacency) with the intent of putting down a Harbor to complete the triangle. I’d work on the Campus and then get a galley out. The Harbor has the same adjacency as the Commercial Hub in the original plan and the Campus is down one adjacency point. The Harbor, though, has more utility because it will generate Great Admiral points and Admirals are useful for gaining naval control.

Second I’d make the Marshed location the first city to be settled in the second settler wave. We could leave the district placement as-is or sacrifice the jungle hill SW of the city to put an eventual +4 Campus there. Galley → builder → Campus with Harbor placement coming as soon as the city reaches 4 population. If we’re border-blocked that’s OK – we could send the galley up around the northern route while we build quadriremes and work towards Cartography.

Step three would be to use the northern city-state as the second base of naval operations. Dauph coast looks juicy but it would be slow-starting. Taking an established city gets us that much more of a lead. Mashed will need to get out some archers and a mobile land unit sooner rather than later to take that city. We have two archers in the area and I think the fastest way to do this is to build two archers and two scouts to try to take the city before it gets walls up. The units would get built at Dauphinoise. Settler #5 would then come up here and settle the river to the west to provide a commerce boost and some mutual support.

For the defensive front at Khmer there’s no good spot for Wealth of Nations to put an Encampment. The UARV site, though, could put one on the tile north of the copper in order to cover that choke point. That would require changing the district selection to Campus, Harbor & Encampment rather than a Commercial Hub. Conquest of Paradise would need to establish an Encampment in a “good” spot (if available) and then be a military producer.

[suboptimal]

Turn 49

We’ve met a city-state during the interturn. Let’s find out who it is:




Alhambram was here first. Interesting. That means that the sea is likely a closed one or that he’s got a galley out. He has one envoy here and the city-state would like us to train a chariot. The city is all desert, which is not an attractive city location. The good news is that I could put a city on the river to get the diamonds and place a Harbor, though that would involve getting rid of those fish. The archer moves south to see what’s on the water:




Oh yeah, a city right where the western archer is standing would work out quite well if I harvest those fish. There’s even room for a Nubian pyramid.

Settler in Dauphinoise is complete and moves off towards the LARV site. The settler will actually found LARV on turn 55. After looking at the situation I start a trader. That’ll take 5 turns and I’ll do the granary and builder after that, order to be determined by when I get the Masonry eureka. The city will start work on the pyramids as soon as that tech is in.

In the far north the barbarian scout has appeared out of the fog, probably to take revenge for the loss of its camp. The archer moves east onto an open hill and shoots for 64 damage.

Mid-range warrior moves east one more tile to reveal the coast in the area. Just some whales two tiles east of the stone it’s now standing on.

Down at Wealth of Nations:




He’s swapped a healthy warrior for the redlined one. That actually works in my favor as I can advance Maris Piper without too much concern. If he attacks during his turn that warrior will be redlined or dead when I counterattack. If he doesn’t that warrior will be losing more than half its damage when I attack. Maris Piper advances, as do the two archers behind. Warrior takes the Battlecry promotion and is up to 75 health, other warrior moves to the open diamonds to the west. It will stay put for a turn or two then move up as the archers advance. I’ll likely carry through with the tile buy next turn to get a view of what’s going on around there.

Pindicator spent 60 last turn so that slinger of his is now an archer – he must have completed the tech last turn. Something to keep in mind as I advance. Cornflakes and Alhambram have both completed their sixth civic. Alhambram is still in Chiefdom, though, so it wasn’t Political Philosophy. TBS has a settler out as his empire score went down by one.

Masonry will be eureka + 1 after this turn. I’ll start Sailing after that. Political Philosophy will take 10 turns to complete unless we increase our culture output by a bit.

[suboptimal]

Turn 50

No notifications. Dauphuinoise grew back its population and is back to working the bananas. The added production cuts a turn off the trader. Masonry is at eureka + 1, swap over to Sailing, will work that for two turns before starting Wheel. State Workforce is done, start Political Philosophy, that’s done in 9 turns. Go to policies, swap out Colonization for Urban Planning and Agoge for Limitanei. No change in settler completion time at Mashed.

Up north the scout suicided on the archer. It crosses the river east:




This area is too close to the intended Northeast location to be settled directly. I could, in theory, plant on the wheat and chop out a Harbor or something. However, the other city that would go up here is going a bit further southeast of there. Speaking of southeast the archer by Brussels moves back up to the western diamonds. What’s interesting is that Alhambram found the city-state first but the mountain name, Nuba Mountains, comes off Nubia’s place list. That means he found Brussels and went no further west OR he’s somewhere in the fog just east of my position. Warrior near LARV moves back towards the city site and the settler makes forward progress.

Pindicator’s milpower is up to 125. That’s a large gain. It’s not a horseman or a spearman, though, as he’s not that far along the tech tree. The situation at Au Gratin:




He fortified the warrior in range. I would like to advance the archer NW of Maris Piper so I buy the tile the warrior is fortified in, as previously discussed, to see what’s around. He’s got another warrior fortified west of the warrior visible above and there’s an archer is in the area as well (SE of the warrior in the above screenshot). There’s a possibility that he’s put a third warrior on the tile NW of that western warrior (SW-W of the unpromoted archer). I shoot the fortified warrior next to Maris Piper, doing 37 points of damage. I hold off on further advances for the time being, but I rearrange the archers so that the unpromoted one is now at the back of the pack. My wounded warrior heal-fortifies for the time being. The current situation:




I have another unorthodox thought which I might pull off in a turn or two (or three). Previously I speculated about placing a Holy Site in the location where that jungle hill is (the tile that Maris Piper is standing on). The problem is that I can’t place a Holy Site because I don’t have Astrology completed. However, I could place an Encampment on the tile that his now-wounded warrior is standing in. If I put down the Encampment then Maris Piper gains visibility on any tile adjacent to that one. From its current position it could shoot either warrior (assuming the wounded one retreats or the archer. Yes, it does give visibility to the archer but I’d be shooting first (for 70-80 points of damage). Once the archer is chased back I could then try to force the other warrior into retreating, at which point I advance the archers and shoot my way out. Note that with the lack of forest in the tile Maris Piper would be able to move into it and shoot.

Longer term that Encampment isn’t a bad spot – it helps to protect the southern area in the event Alhambram attempts to attack Conquest of Paradise. A Holy Site is eventually going on that jungle so it’d provide some adjacency. It does delay the Harbor to 7 population but with the wheat to the northeast that should be reachable. Does the committee have any thoughts? I think the tactical upside here is worth the trouble once that warrior is clear of the tile. We also have some time to discuss as I likely won't be able to play the next turn until Sunday.

I also have to wonder if Pindicator is hoping that Alhambram declares on me in two turns given the denouncement. Something else to keep in mind here, though if he did that his warrior would be toast as well.

[CFCJesterFool]

You are going to need encampments anyway. See how the situation develops but if it makes sense at the time then go ahead and place the encampment.

[Banzailizard]

I do want to point out that Alhambra is gaining diplomatic favor. Either he has a city state, or he has a government.

The denouncement could also be a way to signal to Pin that he is going to passively support him (blocking and such), or yes to get a hard to get but critical boost.

How long would the encampment take to build? It can't shoot until you have walls anyways, but GG points are useful for conquest. Who is the next GG and are you likely to get them? What is the opportunity cost? What else could you be building there right now? First thought is a builder, though the city seems to be doing pretty well and does not have a lot of tiles to work. Second thought is more military.

[suboptimal]

Alhmabram suzerained Kabul a couple of turns ago. He doesn't have a government yet. He completed his 6th civic (and his 5th) a turn or so ago. I checked for a government and he was still in Chiefdom.

IIRC declaring a Formal War doesn't trigger the inspiration for Nationalism. Generally speaking people have tried that and either been declared on or not gotten the boost. I believe it needs to be a true Casus Belli to do so.

The Encampment would take forever to build right now. Everything takes a while to build and the only reason the monument is taking "only" 6 turns is because it only needs 15 to repair. Au Gratin has a production rate of 3.3 per turn because of the occupation penalty (-50% to all yields and 0% growth). The next build after the monument will either be a builder (~18 turns) or an archer (~14 turns). The Encampment would only be placed now, not built out, which does two things for us. First (obviously) it locks in the cost to build it at 97, which would be about 9 turns of production or so once Au Gratin comes out of occupation. Second, it has the tactical purpose of clearing the forest from that hill. That opens the sight lines for Maris Piper to shoot at any visible units to force them to retreat or die. That, in turn, should let the archers advance along the mountain pass line with less resistance.

If the warrior I just shot does retreat I would place the Encampment and then shoot the archer to force it to withdraw (likely to the city). I would then start shooting at any warriors in range until I could force that uninjured warrior to back off its current position. Once that occurs I can advance the other archer up as it'd be subject to only one possible attack from a warrior in the mountain pass, which Maris Piper or another archer could then shoot from the Encampment location.

[Banzailizard]

In that case I am fine with the encampment plan.

[suboptimal]

Turn 51

Open the save to a notification that Mount Semeru has “erupted in one of the deadliest explosions known to mankind” and has fertilized seven tiles. The damage?




I need to check some numbers but I think Mashed just moved ahead of Northeast in terms of settling order. The tile with the Campus marker is now a 32 tile. Those yields are just too juicy to pass up and the city will be a fast grower. It also means that paving over the jungle hill SW of the city marker is not that big of a loss given all the yields to the north. I’ll do a bit of a recount after the turn report is up and make a decision. The settler is due out of Mashed next turn.

Out by Brussels I move the archer east one tile and find a warrior. Looks like the city-state has been on a unit binge of sorts. I move the other archer two tiles east to further reveal the coast. No sea resources but that wheat tile in the previous screen shot is next to two reefs.

Down at Au Gratin nothing has changed except that the archer has retreated out of view, presumably to the city center. The city is due to rebel in 8 turns, the monument will complete in two turns and the settler will found in four turns. I’m hopeful that the new city will enough to slow that issue down to a crawl, if not stop it completely. Maris Piper shoots the wounded warrior for 58 points of damage. The warrior is down to less than 10 damage and will die next turn. If it retreats or nothing moves up to take its place I’ll put the Encampment down and start shooting at all available targets.

I do decide to shuffle the unpromoted warrior and the archer W of the city center. I can move the warrior up next turn to check the tile SW-W of that archer. If there are two warriors and Pindicator attacks with both I’d be able to retreat the warrior and let it heal back up (it is, after all, meant to eventually garrison the city). That would also wound the visible undamaged warrior enough where Maris Piper could one-shot kill it, providing that archer enough room to move up a couple of turns later.

Pindicator’s main asset here is time. Time to research Masonry and build walls. My main asset, right now, is milpower, though I need to be careful in creating my breakthrough. Next turn will be interesting.

I’ve also realized that I’ve not taken the governor promotion from State Workforce yet. Instead of spending it on Pingala I decide to spend it on Magnus, put him in Au Gratin and get Pingala back to Dauphinoise for some extra culture and science output. Should have done that a couple of turns ago.