January 24th, 2020, 10:14
(This post was last modified: January 24th, 2020, 10:14 by TheArchduke.)
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(January 23rd, 2020, 18:24)Sullla Wrote: These turn reports have been excellent, thanks for providing so much detail and so many screenshots!  I wanted to make sure to mention that since it often goes unremarked in these MP games. Now as far as the topics we were discussing:
* I disagree a bit with williams482 on needing to avoid faith-buying settlers out of Fogger. That city has four really good resource tiles (cows, horses, the two luxuries) and then some "OK" tiles after that (the double forested grassland hills and the plains grassland hill). Those hills will be excellent down the road with lumbermills and they can *ALL* get the Earth Goddess bonus with a Liang city park improvement placed on the tile southwest of the city center down the road. However, Fogger gets most of its power at size 4 and never really needs to grow past size 7, which means that it doesn't matter overmuch if Russia produces some settlers out of it. I'm fine with TheArchduke going for the JustDoIt spot with the current settler and then faith-purchases two settlers at the start of the Golden Age out of Fogger (for Beyond Timbermist) and Funky (for Spice Melange). For that matter, you could always get a settler out of the capital too if needed with faith, although Pingala argues against doing that too much. Basically, I'd pick the best spots for new cities and not worry too much about where the settlers come from. I would not pick a weaker city spot just out of worry about where the settler's population point comes from.
* The Ancestral Hall costs 150 production so there's no way that it will be done before the two faith-purchased settlers finish. Fogger definitely should go trader -> Government Plaza -> Ancestral Hall and get the thing up and running ASAP but don't try to delay settling around the thing completing. It will probably be ready for city #7 and everything thereafter.
* I wouldn't sign that gold trade with TBS either, giving up 70 gold right now for 3 gold/turn over 30 turns is a sucker's deal. My immediate thought was that he's at war and needs money for emergency upgrades, no idea if that's true or not but it would explain the low city count. We don't have enough information at the moment to make an informed strategic decision. I would consider offering a Declaration of Friendship though since we have no intention of being aggressive at any time in the next 30 turns. Has that option been unlocked yet? I can't remember what you need on the tech/civics tree for that.
* The countdown to the next era should start any turn now. Russia will easily hit the required points for a Golden Age, and if anything it would be better to "save" era points if possible until after the next era starts. Not sure how possible that will be though. Landing another Golden Age for the Medieval period will be a very big deal and then after that it won't matter that much.
* I think archer upgrades are a decent use of money since there have been a lot of barbs and not stopping development to get more military is a high priority. Just remember that archers cost 1 gold/turn unlike warriors/slingers and that anything spent on upgrades isn't going into economy. You will also likely need to purchase the tile for the Campus at Funky in the near future so that it can go right onto the +4 beakers district when it hits size 4, and that's going to cost 80ish gold or so.
* On that note, your next big civics target after Political Philosophy should be Recorded History for the Natural Philosophy policy card (double adjacency bonus from Campuses). That's often a weak option but not here, with the capital having a +4 beaker Campus (once the Government Plaza finishes) and Funky also going to have a +4 beaker Campus. So Natural Philosophy will be worth +8 beakers/turn and that's a ton at this stage of the game. Far better than any of the other immediate targets on the civics tree that I can see after you land the initial governments.
- Just do it is my preference as well over the rest.
- With the horses and the trader we could get quite a quick ancestral hall.
- I offered a DoF, details in the report.
- Should be possible.
- Yeah, the archer in the NW was needed though with a barb camp on speed (horses)
- Yeah, research should be a priority. Culture will be a nonissue with Russia soon.
Turn 50
I had something a bit more extensive. Shorter will have to do.
Greece just made me a lot more unfriendly.
Stealing a bard camp.
I asked for a bit of gold compensation, just so he knows why he will be targeted first. I expect him to choose unwisely.
To the contrary with TBS I offer a DoF and do not block his likely settling site (what a nice one indeed) as not to annoy him and make an enemy out of the Cree. We have enough space and I would only force a slightly suboptimal city plant.
Fun with barbs:
January 25th, 2020, 16:33
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Seriously stressed for time.
Just a screenie.
January 25th, 2020, 17:52
(This post was last modified: January 25th, 2020, 17:54 by Sullla.)
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Greece didn't give you any gold, huh? Well I can't say that I'm surprised. Something to keep in mind for later. Two short suggestions to consider:
* After the builder on the spices adds a plantation, maybe send it to the stone resource that the capital just picked up? That adds a decent tile for the capital to work (2 food / 2 production / 2 faith) and lands the boost for Masonry. I don't see any other way that you're likely to land that boost before you'll want to research that tech.
* What does Funky Swamp build next turn after the Lavra finishes but before it grows to size 4 and starts on the Campus district? Immediate thoughts are shrine and granary being the best options. Granary lets the city keep growing to higher sizes before hitting the housing cap while shrine adds faith/culture and provides a place for missionaries to be purchased later. The only downside to shrine is that I think you don't get the Choral Music bonus culture unless your state religion is present in the city. (Is Funky close to converting via Holy City pressure?)
Otherwise I don't think there are any immediate decisions to make next turn. Has the countdown to the Classical era started yet?
EDIT: Just saw that Russian territory completely blocks the Greek scout from passing through unless you sign a Right of Passage or he declares war. Hooray for those giant borders!
January 27th, 2020, 07:50
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(January 25th, 2020, 17:52)Sullla Wrote: Greece didn't give you any gold, huh? Well I can't say that I'm surprised. Something to keep in mind for later. Two short suggestions to consider:
* After the builder on the spices adds a plantation, maybe send it to the stone resource that the capital just picked up? That adds a decent tile for the capital to work (2 food / 2 production / 2 faith) and lands the boost for Masonry. I don't see any other way that you're likely to land that boost before you'll want to research that tech.
* What does Funky Swamp build next turn after the Lavra finishes but before it grows to size 4 and starts on the Campus district? Immediate thoughts are shrine and granary being the best options. Granary lets the city keep growing to higher sizes before hitting the housing cap while shrine adds faith/culture and provides a place for missionaries to be purchased later. The only downside to shrine is that I think you don't get the Choral Music bonus culture unless your state religion is present in the city. (Is Funky close to converting via Holy City pressure?)
Otherwise I don't think there are any immediate decisions to make next turn. Has the countdown to the Classical era started yet?
EDIT: Just saw that Russian territory completely blocks the Greek scout from passing through unless you sign a Right of Passage or he declares war. Hooray for those giant borders!
- I kinda disagree on the quarry. That tile is not really of that much use of us. It is Breathtaking with a 5, so the quarry does not ruin the +2 faith. I kinda like to improve the camp of the truffles to get our gold income another boost. We can also easily go to the housing cap.
It is however a better tile then the horse tile to work when we hit the housing cap. I still prefer to improve the camp and use our southern worker to improve 2 tiles with farms for more housing and growth for Funky.
- Funky. I think even with the delay in conversion the shrine makes more sense. The Granary let us grow even more but right now we do not have the tiles to work. In the third ring there are the dyes and the eastern truffles. A shrine would help us stay competitive in culture as well. Funky will switch to a campus in 3 turns anyway, if nothing crazy comes up. The campus should get discounted as soon as we place the gov district or when we finish it?
- Countdown to classical is at 9, faith production is at 30 and still rising.
So Turn 52
One turn before the new government rolls around. I am on the fence, leaning towards Autocracy as the policy setup is better. I also start up HBR as to have it ready soon for a round of 3-4 horseman so nothing can suprise us and we can actually push our borders out without sacrificing security. We have the horses, they are quicker and we do not want to general attack someone. For offensive purposes I vastly prefer swordsman because their promotions are better and a player won´t be rattled by horseman if they are not augmented somehow.
I let the archer fall back into DotF territory so he can kill the Horse Archer more easily. The warrior advances on the camp. I will try to delay capture into the classical age as to save on era points. We should between governments and the Great Writer be in a golden age next turn so anything above that is wasted in the ancient.
I decided on a granary in Funky, we want that city to grow like weed and it can power a potential third district (commercial) better then any other city. A shrine can be done by Hell March come next turn. I spot the capital and should the settler not have been settled by now. I doubt there is a better spot then the spices and he had a DoF with me.
From the score screen it seems that Pindicator and Suboptimal are very low in era score, development and seemingly districts. I am fairly sure there is an early war going on by now which can be good or bad.
Quite contrary to the love fest I see with Kaiser and TheBlackSword and the third party which has DoFed them both. I offer a DoF to Kaiser as not to be left out. For now..
January 27th, 2020, 18:43
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Thanks for more illustrative screenshots as usual. I had a few thoughts before the next turn rolls in:
* With regards to your two current builders and their three remaining charges, I was thinking that you would use one for the truffles at Funky, one to farm the 5/2 tile at Funky, and the last could be opened up to put a quarry on the stone tile at the capital. This gets a decent tile for the capital and more importantly lands the Masonry boost to avoid wasting beakers. The alternative to using a charge on the stone tile is... what, exactly? Farming another tile at Funky? That city will have a 6 food tile and a trio of 4 food tiles even if you use a charge on the stone. Does it really need ANOTHER farm on top of that? Farms are pretty weak tile improvements in general for Civ6 due to the low housing cap. Ultimately this is your call but I think two farms at Funky would be a bit of a waste.
* Horseback Riding seems like a good tech to research given that you're trying to avoid opening up more districts for the moment to take advantage of the discounting formula. There's also a good chance that you can spend 4-5 turns at some point in the near future pushing out a couple of horsemen for general safety, although that might not be necessary if everyone signs Declarations of Friendship with Russia. I also like avoiding a clear on the barb camp until the new era starts, as you said there's no need for further era points right now and you'll want to get a second Golden Age for the medieval period if at all possible.
* I was thinking a lot about the subject of governments and I think that Classical Republic is the better choice right now. This is a major change from pre-expansion Civ6 where I was a big fan of Autocracy and those Military policy card slots. But the expansions changed the overflow mechanics so that chopping with the +100% production cards and overflowing into other build items is no longer possible, and that weakens Autocracy significantly. I like Classical Republic because the innate benefits are just better: +1 housing and +1 amenity in every city with a district (VERY big given your Lavra-heavy setup and need for more housing) plus 15% more Great Person points. This is far superior to the +1 yields and wonder-building bonus offered by Autocracy. Furthermore, you are at peace in the game right now and likely to remain at peace for the forseeable future with little need to build military. So yes, the policy card slots are better for Autocracy, but getting +1 housing/amenities in every city is a huge deal and the extra Great Person points could be important as well. Speaking of which...
* I'd like to suggest a library over a shrine as the next build in Hell March. It might not look like it right now, but science is more of a limiting factor at the moment than culture. The Great Writer is about to arrive in a turn or two and take culture up to 15/turn, and then there's another Pingala promotion incoming in roughly 10 turns for another 6 culture/turn after that. Aside from general population growth, there isn't as much that's going to add to science in the near future. Furthermore, if you build an early library at the capital and run Classical Republic, you have a legit shot at landing the first Great Scientist (the ever-desirable Hypatia). I'm not sure how many Campus districts have been built out there, it just feels like you'd have an excellent shot with two Campuses and a library and Classical Republic. Assuming that you're one of the leaders in the current Great Scientist point rankings, it's worth thinking about. (I like the idea of shrine and temple as the next two builds in the capital because both are cheap and the capital can't do another district at the moment, I would just reverse the order in the hopes of landing a Great Scientist.)
* Small note: you can lock in the cost of the Government Plaza at Fogger next turn by placing it, then finish the trader, then go back and actually build the Government Plaza itself. Leaving the trader 3 turns from finishing feels like a waste to me, so I'd get that done first but make sure to place the district so that the cost gets locked in.
* TBS jumped up 8 beakers between turns and tied Russia in science. Decent chance that's a Pingala promotion or else a district with a huge adjacency bonus getting finished. He's going to be strong competition for sure.
January 28th, 2020, 12:20
(This post was last modified: January 28th, 2020, 12:23 by TheArchduke.)
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(January 27th, 2020, 18:43)Sullla Wrote: Thanks for more illustrative screenshots as usual. I had a few thoughts before the next turn rolls in:
* With regards to your two current builders and their three remaining charges, I was thinking that you would use one for the truffles at Funky, one to farm the 5/2 tile at Funky, and the last could be opened up to put a quarry on the stone tile at the capital. This gets a decent tile for the capital and more importantly lands the Masonry boost to avoid wasting beakers. The alternative to using a charge on the stone tile is... what, exactly? Farming another tile at Funky? That city will have a 6 food tile and a trio of 4 food tiles even if you use a charge on the stone. Does it really need ANOTHER farm on top of that? Farms are pretty weak tile improvements in general for Civ6 due to the low housing cap. Ultimately this is your call but I think two farms at Funky would be a bit of a waste.
* Horseback Riding seems like a good tech to research given that you're trying to avoid opening up more districts for the moment to take advantage of the discounting formula. There's also a good chance that you can spend 4-5 turns at some point in the near future pushing out a couple of horsemen for general safety, although that might not be necessary if everyone signs Declarations of Friendship with Russia. I also like avoiding a clear on the barb camp until the new era starts, as you said there's no need for further era points right now and you'll want to get a second Golden Age for the medieval period if at all possible.
* I was thinking a lot about the subject of governments and I think that Classical Republic is the better choice right now. This is a major change from pre-expansion Civ6 where I was a big fan of Autocracy and those Military policy card slots. But the expansions changed the overflow mechanics so that chopping with the +100% production cards and overflowing into other build items is no longer possible, and that weakens Autocracy significantly. I like Classical Republic because the innate benefits are just better: +1 housing and +1 amenity in every city with a district (VERY big given your Lavra-heavy setup and need for more housing) plus 15% more Great Person points. This is far superior to the +1 yields and wonder-building bonus offered by Autocracy. Furthermore, you are at peace in the game right now and likely to remain at peace for the forseeable future with little need to build military. So yes, the policy card slots are better for Autocracy, but getting +1 housing/amenities in every city is a huge deal and the extra Great Person points could be important as well. Speaking of which...
* I'd like to suggest a library over a shrine as the next build in Hell March. It might not look like it right now, but science is more of a limiting factor at the moment than culture. The Great Writer is about to arrive in a turn or two and take culture up to 15/turn, and then there's another Pingala promotion incoming in roughly 10 turns for another 6 culture/turn after that. Aside from general population growth, there isn't as much that's going to add to science in the near future. Furthermore, if you build an early library at the capital and run Classical Republic, you have a legit shot at landing the first Great Scientist (the ever-desirable Hypatia). I'm not sure how many Campus districts have been built out there, it just feels like you'd have an excellent shot with two Campuses and a library and Classical Republic. Assuming that you're one of the leaders in the current Great Scientist point rankings, it's worth thinking about. (I like the idea of shrine and temple as the next two builds in the capital because both are cheap and the capital can't do another district at the moment, I would just reverse the order in the hopes of landing a Great Scientist.)
* Small note: you can lock in the cost of the Government Plaza at Fogger next turn by placing it, then finish the trader, then go back and actually build the Government Plaza itself. Leaving the trader 3 turns from finishing feels like a waste to me, so I'd get that done first but make sure to place the district so that the cost gets locked in.
* TBS jumped up 8 beakers between turns and tied Russia in science. Decent chance that's a Pingala promotion or else a district with a huge adjacency bonus getting finished. He's going to be strong competition for sure.
- Farms increase housing, you seldom need them for anything else except in dire food starved cities at the start. Funky will get some farms but in the future. I agree on the eureka on masonry.
- On HBR exactly my thinking. We should get 3-4 horses regardless for CS eating purposes.
- Could not agree more.
- I think Hypatia is worth a shot. In 3 turns we have Mysticism and I want to run the +2 GS card.
- I did that, but now I think the gov plaza should come first. The trade is more needed at Just do It then at Fogger.
Turn 53
So, what news are there. Funky has a discounted campus. Awesome.
New policies. Want to buy the campus tile cheaper and discipline stay until the horse camp is cleared.
Great Writer Homer joins us.
And we are close to a religious CS, quite curious what it is. Probability that someone kills it before we can use it? 99%
My main worry is getting archers in place to escort the faith bought settlers.
Ah yes,
With Autocracy and +15% the ToA could be finished in 8 turns. In Hell March.
January 28th, 2020, 18:00
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(January 28th, 2020, 12:20)TheArchduke Wrote: Ah yes,
With Autocracy and +15% the ToA could be finished in 8 turns. In Hell March.
I don't love this idea any more than Sullla does, but if you are going to go for it, put it on the forest tile 2 east of Hell March. That will catch seven eligible tiles and be appeal neutral, without taking up a spot (like 1NE of Hell March) that would get no benefit from +1 appeal, but benefit substantially from a +2 City Park.
At a minimum, we can afford to wait a bit on this one, and certainly take enough time to chop the tile first. If someone blitzkriegs their way to Artemis and we miss out, I'm not going to be crushed.
January 28th, 2020, 18:24
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Wow, only 4 turns to build the Government Plaza at Fogger and only 8 turns for a discounted Campus at Funky? Very nice indeed. This is one of the understated reasons why Russia is so good as a civ: the Lavras are so cheap that they make it trivial to land the district discounting formula on everything else throughout the early game. Every district has been discounted thus far except the Lavras themselves - which are already half price! The capital can grow to size 7 while it knocks out library/shrine and then it will be able to construct yet another half cost Commercial district. Awesome stuff. 
Minutiae from the old district discounting formula for the curious:
Other thoughts:
* I didn't think about going for Mysticism as the next civic because Natural Philosophy (double science adjacency bonuses, i.e. +8 beakers) at Recorded History is such a strong option. But Russia can't finish Natural Philosophy until it gets boosted by the construction of the second Campus at Funky, and that's about 10 turns away at the moment. So Mysticism seems like a fine choice given that it unlocks Inspiration (the +2 Scientist points/turn policy) and there's no wasted time here. I do think that Drama and Poetry en route to Natural Philosophy would be the best civic to pursue next given that the military civics at the top of the tree don't look useful here.
* Policies seem good at the moment, Land Surveyors can be dropped in 3 turns after grabbing that Campus tile for Funky.
* Saving the trade route for Just Do It instead of Fogger makes a lot of sense and the timings line up well to have the trader finish right around when the city gets established. The road created by the trade connection will also be more useful than a road running from Fogger to the capital. The only trade off is that Fogger will grow slowly without the extra food, although it's working all of its best tiles at the moment and won't unlock a district for a very long time so this is probably OK. In the long run, Fogger will definitely want its own trade route to bring in some more food.
* Regarding Hypatia: Russia makes 1.2 Great Scientist points/turn right now. With Inspiration policy + the library at the capital + Classical Republic, that would increase quickly to 4.6 Scientist points/turn, which doesn't take long to add up to 60 GPP. Could you post a picture of the current status of the Great Person screen? It doesn't sound like there's too much competition for the first Scientist at present and this is a race that you have a legitimate shot to win. Ideally, you would land Hypatia and use her to rush a library in the Campus district at Funky after it finishes. Together with Natural Philosophy policy in place, that would get science up to about 40 beakers/turn and the era points would be scored in the Classical Age towards another future Golden Age. Let's keep fingers crossed for now but I think it was a sharp idea to grab the cheap Mysticism civic and open this up as a possibility. (Don't run projects here, if you miss Hypatia then you'll get the next Scientist who will also do something useful.)
* I would strongly advise against trying to build Temple of Artemis. Again, it's just not that useful and the capital's production can be better used elsewhere. I think library into shrine into Commercial district at size 7 is the natural path here and provides a really strong opening as gameplay starts to shift into the midgame. Nine turns diverted into an unneeded wonder is nine turns not spent pushing forward on these buildings, and the sooner that the capital finishes a library/shrine, the sooner it will be able to finish one of those sweet Choral Music temples later on.
* I don't know where your cities are going to find time to squeeze out horsemen units at the moment since they'll all working on important infrastructure.  Hopefully everyone else stays peaceful and you won't need to worry about military for the immediate future. It looks like the barbs are under control at present and with any luck they'll stay that way.
January 29th, 2020, 07:18
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(January 28th, 2020, 18:24)Sullla Wrote: Wow, only 4 turns to build the Government Plaza at Fogger and only 8 turns for a discounted Campus at Funky? Very nice indeed. This is one of the understated reasons why Russia is so good as a civ: the Lavras are so cheap that they make it trivial to land the district discounting formula on everything else throughout the early game. Every district has been discounted thus far except the Lavras themselves - which are already half price! The capital can grow to size 7 while it knocks out library/shrine and then it will be able to construct yet another half cost Commercial district. Awesome stuff.
* I didn't think about going for Mysticism as the next civic because Natural Philosophy (double science adjacency bonuses, i.e. +8 beakers) at Recorded History is such a strong option. But Russia can't finish Natural Philosophy until it gets boosted by the construction of the second Campus at Funky, and that's about 10 turns away at the moment. So Mysticism seems like a fine choice given that it unlocks Inspiration (the +2 Scientist points/turn policy) and there's no wasted time here. I do think that Drama and Poetry en route to Natural Philosophy would be the best civic to pursue next given that the military civics at the top of the tree don't look useful here.
* Policies seem good at the moment, Land Surveyors can be dropped in 3 turns after grabbing that Campus tile for Funky.
* Saving the trade route for Just Do It instead of Fogger makes a lot of sense and the timings line up well to have the trader finish right around when the city gets established. The road created by the trade connection will also be more useful than a road running from Fogger to the capital. The only trade off is that Fogger will grow slowly without the extra food, although it's working all of its best tiles at the moment and won't unlock a district for a very long time so this is probably OK. In the long run, Fogger will definitely want its own trade route to bring in some more food.
* Regarding Hypatia: Russia makes 1.2 Great Scientist points/turn right now. With Inspiration policy + the library at the capital + Classical Republic, that would increase quickly to 4.6 Scientist points/turn, which doesn't take long to add up to 60 GPP. Could you post a picture of the current status of the Great Person screen? It doesn't sound like there's too much competition for the first Scientist at present and this is a race that you have a legitimate shot to win. Ideally, you would land Hypatia and use her to rush a library in the Campus district at Funky after it finishes. Together with Natural Philosophy policy in place, that would get science up to about 40 beakers/turn and the era points would be scored in the Classical Age towards another future Golden Age. Let's keep fingers crossed for now but I think it was a sharp idea to grab the cheap Mysticism civic and open this up as a possibility. (Don't run projects here, if you miss Hypatia then you'll get the next Scientist who will also do something useful.)
* I would strongly advise against trying to build Temple of Artemis. Again, it's just not that useful and the capital's production can be better used elsewhere. I think library into shrine into Commercial district at size 7 is the natural path here and provides a really strong opening as gameplay starts to shift into the midgame. Nine turns diverted into an unneeded wonder is nine turns not spent pushing forward on these buildings, and the sooner that the capital finishes a library/shrine, the sooner it will be able to finish one of those sweet Choral Music temples later on.
* I don't know where your cities are going to find time to squeeze out horsemen units at the moment since they'll all working on important infrastructure. Hopefully everyone else stays peaceful and you won't need to worry about military for the immediate future. It looks like the barbs are under control at present and with any luck they'll stay that way.
- Yeah, the savings on those districts are impressive.
- Inspiration is the key to secure Hypatia. After that immeaditly recorded history by the way of a second finished campus. Down the line we want Cultural Districts for Great Works, but this is far away.
- Yeah, I do not see another tile which is worth it.
- Kinda disagree apart from Hypatia and Isaac most early GS are not worth it. Mayhaps the one with +20 healing in the field.
- Yeah. I think ToA could be a good choice, but we are not boxed in and need to expand.
- You know by now I like to keep an army ready. I was never disappointed by keeping my military expenditure high. I will try to restrain my expansionist tendencies. 
January 29th, 2020, 08:06
(This post was last modified: January 29th, 2020, 08:07 by TheArchduke.)
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Turn 54
The strategy for the next 15-20 turns is forming.
A library in Hell March, a quick Pingala promotion for +100% GP Points in Hell marchin 3 turns and the Inspiration Civic in 2 turns means that we quickly reach 6+ GS points. Only one other player has 2 so far. Hypatia will be used to build a library in Funky and then we boost both districts with Natural Philosophy.
Add to this that I think we should detour 3 turns after that (thanks to the DoFs) for Maneuver and ready a small horseman intervention force to deal with any of our two neighbours who want a piece of me. Realistically right now only the Cree.
Very peculiar. The cree settler that I spotted has not settled yet.
Fighting Barbs and avoiding the camp until the era ends. Also the warrior would be endangered and is in a bit of perilous position.
Also we found another CS, Yerevan which could very well lend itself to a possible religious victory/war.
The trader will support Just do It. So it makes more sense to get the gov plaza up and running asap.
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