[SPOILERS] TheArchduke blasts into Space as Russia

[Sullla]

Overall things are definitely looking great. But this is one thing that I definitely wanted to highlight:

A library in Hell March, a quick Pingala promotion for +100% GP Points in Hell marchin 3 turns and the Inspiration Civic in 2 turns means that we quickly reach 6+ GS points. Only one other player has 2 so far. Hypatia will be used to build a library in Funky and then we boost both districts with Natural Philosophy.

VERY STRONGLY disagree with this suggestion. The next Pingala promotion when the Government Plaza finishes should be Connoisseur: +1 culture per turn for each citizen in the city. That's worth 6 culture/turn immediately (about +50% for the total national Russian culture) and more over time as whatever city Pingala gets stationed in grows. This is the natural counterpart to Researcher which does the same thing for science and it's why sinking early promotions into Pingala is a strong choice.

The Great Person promotion on Pingala is Grant: +100% Great People points generated per turn in the city. This is a weak option and I wouldn't ever pick this up at all. Double Great Person points in the capital would take the city from 1 Scientist point/turn up to... 2 Scientist points/turn. When the library finishes, it doubles from 2 to 4 per turn. That's barely even worth mentioning and a waste of a critical early governor promotion. Definitely do run Inspiration for 5-10 turns to try and pick up Hypatia but the policy card can be swapped out shortly thereafter. The governor promotion is forever and getting +1 culture per pop is far, far better.

I'm also not sure I understand the desire to spend time in Maneuver building horses. Russia has a Declaration of Friendship for the next 27 turns with both human players and there's massive amounts of open space for everyone to settle in. Why slow down economic development to build military that's not going to do anything? Horses won't be enough to capture city states, due to their strange coastal positioning it's going to take ships to blockade and capture them. This feels like a waste of production that could be going into much more useful infrastructure (capital: library/shrine/Commercial district, Fogger: Government Plaza/Ancestral Hall, Funky: Campus district).

Shorter points:

* I think the warrior will be OK if it stays fortified in place and keeps healing between turns. Upgrading the archer over there to deal with the barbs looks like it was a smart move.

* TBS picked up the +1 food / +1 production camp pantheon. Not a bad choice even if Earth Goddess was far better for Russia. What did Greece take out of curiosity?

* Yerevan might be a nice city state to befriend later once some shrines are in place. I doubt too many other players are going to care about the faith and spend their envoys.

* Tile purchases get more expensive as techs/civics are discovered and as more tiles are purchased. You may as well buy the Campus tile for Funky next turn before the price very slightly increments upwards when Mysticism gets finished.

* It's 6-7 turns until the Golden Age starts, right? Russia's going to have about 800 faith (!!!) in the bank when it arrives. Settler #5 should cost 238 faith, settler #6 should cost 280 faith, and settler #7 should cost 322 faith. That adds up to... 840 faith. So you should be able to go triple settler almost immediately after the Golden Age arrives. No need to debate much of anything, you can take Timbermist AND Spice Melange AND something else (Atreides or Act on Instinct) together. Have I mentioned that Russia + Earth Goddess is pretty broken?

[TheArchduke]

Overall things are definitely looking great. But this is one thing that I definitely wanted to highlight:

A library in Hell March, a quick Pingala promotion for +100% GP Points in Hell marchin 3 turns and the Inspiration Civic in 2 turns means that we quickly reach 6+ GS points. Only one other player has 2 so far. Hypatia will be used to build a library in Funky and then we boost both districts with Natural Philosophy.

VERY STRONGLY disagree with this suggestion. The next Pingala promotion when the Government Plaza finishes should be Connoisseur: +1 culture per turn for each citizen in the city. That's worth 6 culture/turn immediately (about +50% for the total national Russian culture) and more over time as whatever city Pingala gets stationed in grows. This is the natural counterpart to Researcher which does the same thing for science and it's why sinking early promotions into Pingala is a strong choice.

The Great Person promotion on Pingala is Grant: +100% Great People points generated per turn in the city. This is a weak option and I wouldn't ever pick this up at all. Double Great Person points in the capital would take the city from 1 Scientist point/turn up to... 2 Scientist points/turn. When the library finishes, it doubles from 2 to 4 per turn. That's barely even worth mentioning and a waste of a critical early governor promotion. Definitely do run Inspiration for 5-10 turns to try and pick up Hypatia but the policy card can be swapped out shortly thereafter. The governor promotion is forever and getting +1 culture per pop is far, far better.

I'm also not sure I understand the desire to spend time in Maneuver building horses. Russia has a Declaration of Friendship for the next 27 turns with both human players and there's massive amounts of open space for everyone to settle in. Why slow down economic development to build military that's not going to do anything? Horses won't be enough to capture city states, due to their strange coastal positioning it's going to take ships to blockade and capture them. This feels like a waste of production that could be going into much more useful infrastructure (capital: library/shrine/Commercial district, Fogger: Government Plaza/Ancestral Hall, Funky: Campus district).

Shorter points:

* I think the warrior will be OK if it stays fortified in place and keeps healing between turns. Upgrading the archer over there to deal with the barbs looks like it was a smart move.

* TBS picked up the +1 food / +1 production camp pantheon. Not a bad choice even if Earth Goddess was far better for Russia. What did Greece take out of curiosity?

* Yerevan might be a nice city state to befriend later once some shrines are in place. I doubt too many other players are going to care about the faith and spend their envoys.

* Tile purchases get more expensive as techs/civics are discovered and as more tiles are purchased. You may as well buy the Campus tile for Funky next turn before the price very slightly increments upwards when Mysticism gets finished.

* It's 6-7 turns until the Golden Age starts, right? Russia's going to have about 800 faith (!!!) in the bank when it arrives. Settler #5 should cost 238 faith, settler #6 should cost 280 faith, and settler #7 should cost 322 faith. That adds up to... 840 faith. So you should be able to go triple settler almost immediately after the Golden Age arrives. No need to debate much of anything, you can take Timbermist AND Spice Melange AND something else (Atreides or Act on Instinct) together. Have I mentioned that Russia + Earth Goddess is pretty broken?

I do think that you are underselling Pingala´s Great Person Promotion. It augments every district, so commercial, encampment, etc..
A valid point is that the Lavra´s Great Points are useless (except it gives us +2 faith there) but overall I do not think the idea absolutely outrageous.

I am also kind of considering other governours to be honest. I do not consider culture an issue, we have quite good yields and culture will explode if we get some shrines going. I do not think the culture promotions is really worth it.

Maneuver built horseman are definitely not something around the corner. I do think I want to time it to get 3-4 out in quick succession possibly with 1-2 harvests or chops. Not something you need to worry that I will do it in 5 turns though.

The territory of the warrior is too strong, together with fortification only barbarian archers could be a real problem. People tend to underestimate terrain in CIV VI as it is nearly irrelevant in CIV IV where you have those choo-choo doom stacks which run around the place. If you are in a forested hill you are VERY difficult to dislodge (as you should be).

Yeah, faith is still exploding with every pop, amenity or thing I do. My MAIN worry is that once again as Russia I do not have really valid coastal locations which tends to you loose you the midgame.

I forgot to check Greeces pantheon. I will do that.

[williams482]

It's hard to argue against taking Pingala's culture promotion next. That's such an easy source of culture (a 36% bump over current income), and the snowball effects of that are considerable, including faster future governor promotions.

Liang seems like an obvious choice for the next promotion, but what do we want to do after that? I'm inclined to push towards City Parks, but that will require three additional promotions on top of claiming Liang, so it's a ways down the road. Coming up, we have the Plaza promotion and Ancestral Hall Promotion, then two civic promotions in the late classical, and a tier II plaza building (Warlord's Throne?) plus two civics in the late medieval. Liang's first non-inherent promotion is reasonably useful (+20% production towards districts), but the second (no damage from disasters in city) is nearly useless, so we probably want to hold off on that until we can get City Parks just after it.

Who else do we want? Magus and Amani have the most obviously useful inherent bonuses. Magus won't see a ton of use given our appeal concerns, but Amani could be useful for taking control of Yerevan and grabbing some extra faith that way.

[Sullla]

I have to echo williams482 about the value of taking the Connoisseur promotion and the +1 culture per population point. It's immediately powerful and remains powerful for the whole game, accelerating Russia ahead towards more advanced civics and stronger social policies. The whole point of investing early governor promotions into Pingala is to double up on the very strong +1 beaker/culture per population point promotions, landing them early in the game when the effect is the strongest. Pingala's base promotion (+15% science/culture in the stationed city) isn't particularly good and wouldn't be worth taking if that were the only benefit. Back in the first expansion, no one went for an early Pingala for this exact reason. It was only in the second expansion when Connoisseur and Researcher were changed to provide their current benefits that early Pingala promotions because a strong play. Flat science/culture is awesome at this stage of the game and 6 culture/turn from Connoisseur would be really powerful. It's like getting triple monuments for free!

Conversely, the Grant promotion (+100% Great Person points in the stationed city) is a genuinely weak option. Because it only applies to a single city, it works against the best method of gaining Great Person points: constructing repeated districts and buildings in lots of cities across the empire. In the context of Hell March, this promotion would grant an additional 2 faith/turn from doubling up the Great Prophet points, which is worth... the equivalent of a single Earth Goddess tile? A national increase of about 5% over the current faith/turn total? That doesn't feel useful at all. It will also double the Great Scientist points from 1/turn to 2/turn, and from 2/turn to 4/turn after the library finishes. This will help out a bit at claiming the first Great Scientist of the game and then be utterly irrelevant thereafter. But you can land exactly the same effect by running the Inspiration policy card for 2 Scientist points/turn while researching Drama and Poetry, and then simply drop that crummy policy card thereafter. You can never remove a governor promotion once taking it, and Grant would be a terrible waste for the rest of the game.

Again, you are the player and this is your decision to make. This decision don't feel close to me, that's all I'm saying. I think getting up to 20 culture/turn right now would be a heck of a lot better.

Williams482 brought up the subject of future governors and I think that's another good topic for discussion. I think the next couple of governors should involve picking up Magnus, Liang, and Amani (all with just their starting ability) in some order. Magnus will be fantastic for helping out some of the new cities get started. They'll get a free builder from Ancestral Hall, and one forest chop with Magnus in place should instantly finish a Lavra if I have the math correct. (Or come very close to it if I don't.) This will keep more faith flowing in for expansion and eventually faith-purchased units. Some of the later Magnus promotions could theoretically be useful (like settlers not consuming a population point in this city) but I think there will be better options to use up promotions elsewhere. Amani's ability to station in city states and serve as 2 envoys is self-explanatory. Her other promotions stink and should never be picked up.

Liang is the most interesting governor for this game. Her default ability of +1 builder charge in the stationed city has a lot of syngergy with Monumentality. You could stick her in a central location in the empire and cash-rush or faith-rush some builders out of that spot as needed to take advantage of the extra charge. The Infrastructure promotion (+30% production towards city center and Government Plaza buildings) could also have some utility, with the former helping new cities get started and the latter assisting Fogger with the later government buildings. Zoning Commissioner at the next tier is also nice: a flat +30% towards districts in the stationed city. But it's the final promotion that hold the most interest for this game: Parks and Recreation opens up those city park improvements that provide +2 appeal to all adjacent tiles. This will unlock Earth Goddess for a ton of tiles and the city park remains in place even after Liang moves to a different location. Russia will want this for sure in the long run. However, it costs a whopping *FOUR* promotions to get this far and there are more important things to take first. That's why I would suggest picking up each of Magnus, Liang, and Amani before starting to dive deeper into the Liang promotions.

I don't think any of the other governors would be too useful for this game. Reyna sounds good but she really isn't: the default ability (Land Acquisition) acquires tiles faster which is pretty pointless. Then she gets either double adjacency bonuses from Commercial/Harbor districts (so 2-3 extra gold at most) or +3 gold from each foreign trade route passing through the city, which will probably be zero since this is a MP game. Contractor sounds great at the third promotion tier (can purchase districts with gold) except that this is MP and that gold will be needed for unit upgrades, not SP silliness. Tax Collector (+1 gold per population point) is admittedly nice, but is it really worth 3 promotions? Gold as a commodity is worth less than beakers or culture and investing 3 promotions for a return of roughly 10-15 gold/turn is pretty lousy. That's a single trade route's worth of income. No deal.

The other governors are no better. Moksha sounds like he'd be useful since this is a religious game, but no, he sucks even in this case. Default ability grants 100% greater passive religious pressure from this city, terrible. His first tier promotions grant either +10 strength in religious combat (useless here) or +20% production towards Holy Site district buildings. That's semi-useful but not worth two governor promotions. The later promotions are all heavily Single Player-centric variant material: religious units fully heal in a single turn in this city, city ignores religious pressure from religious combat in the area, apostles trained in the city receive an extra promotion. Again, only useful if going for a Religious Victory that competent humans won't allow. Victor's abilities are only useful when defending a city which hopefully we won't be doing. Only pick him up late in the game if it looks like Russian cities are in danger. And... that's it, that's all of the governors. Many of their abilities are surprisingly bad for competitive MP.

So my overall summary of this wall of text on governors would be:

1) Pingala: Connoisseur for the extra culture
2-4) Magnus, Liang, Amani in some order depending on what looks best at the time
5-7) Liang remaining promotions down to Parks and Recreation

And the game will be over by that point, if it even lasts that long. I think this would provide the most value for developing Russia economically and snowballing ahead against the competition. Interested to hear your thoughts when you have the time.

[williams482]

Liang is the most interesting governor for this game. Her default ability of +1 builder charge in the stationed city has a lot of syngergy with Monumentality. You could stick her in a central location in the empire and cash-rush or faith-rush some builders out of that spot as needed to take advantage of the extra charge. The Infrastructure promotion (+30% production towards city center and Government Plaza buildings) could also have some utility, with the former helping new cities get started and the latter assisting Fogger with the later government buildings. Zoning Commissioner at the next tier is also nice: a flat +30% towards districts in the stationed city. But it's the final promotion that hold the most interest for this game: Parks and Recreation opens up those city park improvements that provide +2 appeal to all adjacent tiles. This will unlock Earth Goddess for a ton of tiles and the city park remains in place even after Liang moves to a different location. Russia will want this for sure in the long run. However, it costs a whopping *FOUR* promotions to get this far and there are more important things to take first. That's why I would suggest picking up each of Magnus, Liang, and Amani before starting to dive deeper into the Liang promotions.

The Liang promotions you list here are from R&F. The +30% production promotions were changed (nerfed) in Gathering Storm to be +20% towards districts and immunity to disaster damage, respectively. City Parks are still in the same place and essentially the same (an extra +2 culture while Liang is in the city, which is nice I guess).

On the whole though, your conclusions hold up. The only point I'll disagree with is very (perhaps pointlessly) long term: Moksha's ability to buy districts with faith (unlocked at recruitment + three promotions) is pretty powerful in the late game, especially for kicking out spaceports. I'll be shocked if this game goes deep enough for us to lean on that ability, but it's one to keep in mind once the obviously superior options are off the table.

[TheArchduke]

I have to echo williams482 about the value of taking the Connoisseur promotion and the +1 culture per population point. It's immediately powerful and remains powerful for the whole game, accelerating Russia ahead towards more advanced civics and stronger social policies. The whole point of investing early governor promotions into Pingala is to double up on the very strong +1 beaker/culture per population point promotions, landing them early in the game when the effect is the strongest. Pingala's base promotion (+15% science/culture in the stationed city) isn't particularly good and wouldn't be worth taking if that were the only benefit. Back in the first expansion, no one went for an early Pingala for this exact reason. It was only in the second expansion when Connoisseur and Researcher were changed to provide their current benefits that early Pingala promotions because a strong play. Flat science/culture is awesome at this stage of the game and 6 culture/turn from Connoisseur would be really powerful. It's like getting triple monuments for free!

Conversely, the Grant promotion (+100% Great Person points in the stationed city) is a genuinely weak option. Because it only applies to a single city, it works against the best method of gaining Great Person points: constructing repeated districts and buildings in lots of cities across the empire. In the context of Hell March, this promotion would grant an additional 2 faith/turn from doubling up the Great Prophet points, which is worth... the equivalent of a single Earth Goddess tile? A national increase of about 5% over the current faith/turn total? That doesn't feel useful at all. It will also double the Great Scientist points from 1/turn to 2/turn, and from 2/turn to 4/turn after the library finishes. This will help out a bit at claiming the first Great Scientist of the game and then be utterly irrelevant thereafter. But you can land exactly the same effect by running the Inspiration policy card for 2 Scientist points/turn while researching Drama and Poetry, and then simply drop that crummy policy card thereafter. You can never remove a governor promotion once taking it, and Grant would be a terrible waste for the rest of the game.

Again, you are the player and this is your decision to make. This decision don't feel close to me, that's all I'm saying. I think getting up to 20 culture/turn right now would be a heck of a lot better.

Williams482 brought up the subject of future governors and I think that's another good topic for discussion. I think the next couple of governors should involve picking up Magnus, Liang, and Amani (all with just their starting ability) in some order. Magnus will be fantastic for helping out some of the new cities get started. They'll get a free builder from Ancestral Hall, and one forest chop with Magnus in place should instantly finish a Lavra if I have the math correct. (Or come very close to it if I don't.) This will keep more faith flowing in for expansion and eventually faith-purchased units. Some of the later Magnus promotions could theoretically be useful (like settlers not consuming a population point in this city) but I think there will be better options to use up promotions elsewhere. Amani's ability to station in city states and serve as 2 envoys is self-explanatory. Her other promotions stink and should never be picked up.

Liang is the most interesting governor for this game. Her default ability of +1 builder charge in the stationed city has a lot of syngergy with Monumentality. You could stick her in a central location in the empire and cash-rush or faith-rush some builders out of that spot as needed to take advantage of the extra charge. The Infrastructure promotion (+30% production towards city center and Government Plaza buildings) could also have some utility, with the former helping new cities get started and the latter assisting Fogger with the later government buildings. Zoning Commissioner at the next tier is also nice: a flat +30% towards districts in the stationed city. But it's the final promotion that hold the most interest for this game: Parks and Recreation opens up those city park improvements that provide +2 appeal to all adjacent tiles. This will unlock Earth Goddess for a ton of tiles and the city park remains in place even after Liang moves to a different location. Russia will want this for sure in the long run. However, it costs a whopping *FOUR* promotions to get this far and there are more important things to take first. That's why I would suggest picking up each of Magnus, Liang, and Amani before starting to dive deeper into the Liang promotions.

I don't think any of the other governors would be too useful for this game. Reyna sounds good but she really isn't: the default ability (Land Acquisition) acquires tiles faster which is pretty pointless. Then she gets either double adjacency bonuses from Commercial/Harbor districts (so 2-3 extra gold at most) or +3 gold from each foreign trade route passing through the city, which will probably be zero since this is a MP game. Contractor sounds great at the third promotion tier (can purchase districts with gold) except that this is MP and that gold will be needed for unit upgrades, not SP silliness. Tax Collector (+1 gold per population point) is admittedly nice, but is it really worth 3 promotions? Gold as a commodity is worth less than beakers or culture and investing 3 promotions for a return of roughly 10-15 gold/turn is pretty lousy. That's a single trade route's worth of income. No deal.

The other governors are no better. Moksha sounds like he'd be useful since this is a religious game, but no, he sucks even in this case. Default ability grants 100% greater passive religious pressure from this city, terrible. His first tier promotions grant either +10 strength in religious combat (useless here) or +20% production towards Holy Site district buildings. That's semi-useful but not worth two governor promotions. The later promotions are all heavily Single Player-centric variant material: religious units fully heal in a single turn in this city, city ignores religious pressure from religious combat in the area, apostles trained in the city receive an extra promotion. Again, only useful if going for a Religious Victory that competent humans won't allow. Victor's abilities are only useful when defending a city which hopefully we won't be doing. Only pick him up late in the game if it looks like Russian cities are in danger. And... that's it, that's all of the governors. Many of their abilities are surprisingly bad for competitive MP.

So my overall summary of this wall of text on governors would be:

1) Pingala: Connoisseur for the extra culture
2-4) Magnus, Liang, Amani in some order depending on what looks best at the time
5-7) Liang remaining promotions down to Parks and Recreation

And the game will be over by that point, if it even lasts that long. I think this would provide the most value for developing Russia economically and snowballing ahead against the competition. Interested to hear your thoughts when you have the time.

Always with those numbers and concise analysis, Sullla. How am I supposed to make mistakes with you around?

I fear you are right, more culture is better. And the next governor should be a cheap Liang for +1 workers with Monumentality.

Liang is the most interesting governor for this game. Her default ability of +1 builder charge in the stationed city has a lot of syngergy with Monumentality. You could stick her in a central location in the empire and cash-rush or faith-rush some builders out of that spot as needed to take advantage of the extra charge. The Infrastructure promotion (+30% production towards city center and Government Plaza buildings) could also have some utility, with the former helping new cities get started and the latter assisting Fogger with the later government buildings. Zoning Commissioner at the next tier is also nice: a flat +30% towards districts in the stationed city. But it's the final promotion that hold the most interest for this game: Parks and Recreation opens up those city park improvements that provide +2 appeal to all adjacent tiles. This will unlock Earth Goddess for a ton of tiles and the city park remains in place even after Liang moves to a different location. Russia will want this for sure in the long run. However, it costs a whopping *FOUR* promotions to get this far and there are more important things to take first. That's why I would suggest picking up each of Magnus, Liang, and Amani before starting to dive deeper into the Liang promotions.

The Liang promotions you list here are from R&F. The +30% production promotions were changed (nerfed) in Gathering Storm to be +20% towards districts and immunity to disaster damage, respectively. City Parks are still in the same place and essentially the same (an extra +2 culture while Liang is in the city, which is nice I guess).

On the whole though, your conclusions hold up. The only point I'll disagree with is very (perhaps pointlessly) long term: Moksha's ability to buy districts with faith (unlocked at recruitment + three promotions) is pretty powerful in the late game, especially for kicking out spaceports. I'll be shocked if this game goes deep enough for us to lean on that ability, but it's one to keep in mind once the obviously superior options are off the table.

As before, I fear you guys are on point. I do think that the Great Persons 100% has its uses, maybe coupled with the Oracle, but anyway.

This turn is annoying.

Oh come on:

   

And, REALLY. You forward settle me in answer to the DoF?

   

It is really not like I need more motivation to wage war on my neighbours in CIV VI.

I really feel like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPNMO1pnZOc

Anyway, doing my turn now.

[TheArchduke]

Turn 55

I play this turn a bit annoyed with myself and my willingness to play nice with my neighbours. I know it is better, but oh god that city plant. 
I resolve that whatever happens this city burns and it is for metagame hygiene reasons. 

Anyway, I actually buy two tiles at Funky, the campus tile and the excellent Hills Dyes tile to plantation it. Better then +1 food for a city which grows like weed anyway.

The campus tile is a +2 faith tile, but we need the science. The campus is done in 6 turns and gets priority over the granary immediately.
If you wonder where Homer is going, it is the tile of Just do It. Not taking chance with the greek scout there.

You also see the roman scout thanks to the tile buy and lets look at him after the screenie.

   

Nice settler push that Rome has going there. It makes extreme sense for Rome to hyperexpand thanks to the monuments.

   

Our scout spots another city. Probably Rome or another CS.

   

By the way Greece took River Goddess!
Definetly screwed over Khmer there, I think.

I think I am going over the Spice Melange disaster and our highly probable war of "You have chosen unwisely with Cree the next time".
This provocation will not go unpunished.

[williams482]

Boooo...

For whatever it's worth, the Cree probably didn't view that as a forward settle (do they even know where our borders are? Have we seen any units nearby?), and I'll bet the fogged terrain they settled in is pretty good.

It's a definite downgrade over the original pin, but settling one tile north-east on the geothermal vent is still a viable city longterm. Priority for that spot (as with Attack on Arrakis, an obvious case of "great with Petra, crap otherwise" if I've ever seen one) is unclear, as terrain, existing city placement, and loyalty will make further plants by rivals awkward.

This does make an aggressive settler push to the east all the more important. That's unclaimed and profitable territory that nobody has a great claim on, and our rapid expansion abilities should give us the best shot. We still want Timbermist in the next wave (because it's awesome, and it seals off our back lines), but then we should be thinking onward and outward.

Hard building a couple horsemen out of Hell March and Fogger in 20 turns or so seems viable and valuable. Chopping them seems like a bit of a waste, as we'll be using Magus to get satellites up and running and those two cities should be able to kick them out in 3-5 turns with Maneuver, a lumbermill or two, and some pop growth.

[TheArchduke]

The issue with the disappearance with Spice Melange is that we have no good city for ships and eary ships at that. Either we place all cities 2 tiles from the coast or we have a longterm problem.

[varcharmander]

RIP Spice Melange, we hardly knew ye.