[SPOILERS] TheArchduke blasts into Space as Russia

[TheArchduke]

Turn 66

So one turn after we do an overview, the situation changes slightly.
We meet Australia via Fez and know a lot more.

We make contact over this fezian galley.

   

And

   

Looks like an island. Will be interesting if Alhambram also met the northern CS that we just managed to spot but not contact.
This does explain his science.

Inspiration for Games and Recreation means we need to build/buy a waterwheel and/or research construction.
We need to keep up with Alhambram who has 3 envoys already. Next turn we have 2 as well.

Australia has 3! cities but those seems quite potent.

City 3 has a campus, City 2 a Holy Site and a Gov Plaza.

   

[TheArchduke]

Better news on the home front.

Act on Instinct is available, next turn settler buy and off we go.

   

Also the scout is dead and we are enroute to Timbermist and a Holy Site is on its way in the west.

   

I am very glad Hypatia is ours not Australia´s.

[TheArchduke]

Appeal-reducing improvements affect all adjacent tiles, but not the tile on which they are placed. A four appeal hill tile will still have four appeal after a mine is placed on it.

I'm not sure which tle you are recommending for Timbermist (the PFH 1NW of the city center pin has the same appeal as a completed Lavra), but I would strongly suggest the tile the Settler is currently standing on. That's a +3 adjacency and bumps the silks, which we will always be working, up to breathtaking. 1SW would be an alternative, minimal adjacency but boosting truffles to breathtaking while adding enough of a buffer to the city center and the rice that we can mine the Iron and quarry the stone without dropping below four appeal on those tiles.

Lavra placement for Atrides is awkward. The two best options look to be 1NW or 1NE of the city center. Each has +1 adjacency that would be +2 with another district, and each boosts one tile (Copper or Silk) that we will likely want to work.

It's too bad City Parks are buried so deep, because a few of those would make a gigantic difference for us right now.

We preserve a forest and floodplains by going 1 SE and boost the copper. Timbermist, I think you are right.

Wow, that's quite an overview summary. Thanks for posting all of that information! It definitely makes it easier to follow what's going on in the game for those of us just reading in the forums. I think that I'll try to use this post to comment on the immediate turn and hopefully do another post with longterm thoughts a bit later. Thoughts from reading through the current turn:

* I definitely approve of microing Hell March slightly to speed up growth to 3 turns. You are very much on track to finish the builder and then immediately go onto a discounted Commercial district (Russia has exactly enough districts finished to qualify for the discounted cost). This is one point where Classical Republic's policy slots are going to line up nicely, since you can run Urban Planning + Ilkum + Natural Philosophy in the Wildcard slot for triple Economic policy cards. Future needs for Hell March include the Commercial district, the market, and a temple in some order. The temple is the most expensive at 120 production cost but also has the highest value: +4 faith and +4 culture thanks to Choral Music. The whole Russian civ only makes 26 culture/turn right now so a temple would represent an increase of about 15% without even counting the faith. There's a lot to continue developing here and fortunately Hell March has some distance to go before hitting the housing cap (it still doesn't even have a granary, much less an aqueduct).

* Regarding builder charges: you floated using builder charges to farm the wheat tiles to the west of Hell March. This is a solid use of the builder charges for three reasons: 1) tiles can be shared between Hell March and Atreides 2) the tiles get up to an excellent 4/1 yield with a later watermill and 3) farms help lead towards the Feudalism boost. I wrote after the last turn that you need to decide right now if you're committing to chasing after 6 farms for the Feudalism boost. You have 1 farm at the moment and would pick up 3 more from the rice at Timbermist and the 2 wheats along the capital's river. That would leave you 2 farms short which could be picked up at Funky's two excellent tiles (the 5/1 and 4/1 tiles). I would not build any more farms at the moment beyond those; I'd use the last builder charge coming out of Funky for a Magnus-boosted forest chop, which could instantly become another builder or a shrine. Right now, a normal forest chop is worth about 55 production and a Magnus chop would be worth about 80 production. I'd be continuing to think about which tiles can be chopped without hurting the Earth Goddess bonus.

* Fogger: will be working on the Ancestral Hall for some time to come. I personally do not like the idea of purchasing the next settler out of this city and heading for Spice Melange. The main reason is that the Act On Instinct site is *FAR* superior to the Spice Melange site, and I also think it's better to take a population point away from the weak, immature, unimproved Just Do It as opposed to Fogger. Fogger has two excellent tiles to grow onto (the cows and the horses) so it really would be nice to get it back to size 4. This has been a longstanding point of disagreement in this thread, but it feels highly counterproductive to settle such a weak spot along the coast when the outstanding Act On Instict terrain can be claimed. Why not Spice Melange for city #8? It looks like all of the other players are pretty landlocked - surely they don't have navies to worry about at this point, right?

* Funky: builder for now followed by some combination of shrine/temple and military while growing to size 7? Note that at the moment you'd have to purchase two tiles to place a Commercial district at the assigned spot (definitely not worth it) so that may have to be reassigned down the road.

* Just Do It: I would work the same tiles that you have picked here since the Lavra is worth a ton of faith when it finishes and the 1/3/3 tundra tile is clear the best available choice along with the 4/1 high food tile. This is a city that badly wants to get to size 4 as it can build a Campus district with +4 adjacency bonus (Southeast-East of the city). For the same reason, I want Act On Instict to be the next city since it has an even better +5 adjacency Campus spot nearby. Those districts will take a little time to build but will be awesome when they finish, and the sooner they get started, the sooner they'll finish. Quick thought: would it be worthwhile to purchase the 3/1 tile west of the volcano for Just Do It? That could be swapped to Act On Instinct later as needed and it would certainly help Just Do It grow faster. Alternately, you could commit a builder charge to farming the wheat tile to unlock a 3/1 tile that way.

* Atreides: needs food and will otherwise be a fine city. There's a very strong case for purchasing or chopping out a watermill here (since you also need a watermill for the Construction boost and Atreides would benefit enormously from a pair of farmed 4/1 wheat tiles). Longterm this should be the spot for a Magus-chopped Mahabodi Temple so make sure that the Lavra is placed next to a forest tile (would be pretty hard *NOT* to do here!) The Mahabodi requires a shrine and a temple to be in place before it can be constructed though, so it won't be happening right away.

* Timbermist: going to be another great city with the 2 production center tile, a 5/0 rice tile for food, and an iron tile for production. Just give this place some time and let it develop. I completely agree with your suggested builder charge usage and Lavra placement, this city is going to be a strong contributer.

* Research: you might want to stop researching Iron Working. Mining the iron tile in a couple of turns will land the boost and remember that finishing Iron Working will prevent you from training warriors in the future, it might be better to build them and upgrade them with gold. At the very least, I'd swap over to something else and wait for the tech boost to arrive rather than wasting beakers. What's the next tech here? You could hit the top of the tree and go for Sailing into Shipbuilding potentially. Sailing is very cheap and not worth delaying for the boost (it's only worth 20 beakers), whereas Shipbuilding would let your units embark and finally meet that Scientific city state. It would be better to have the boost there but waiting on 2 galley to be produced is going to take forever. I'd think about settling Act On Instinct next (with its far superior terrain compared to Spice Melange) and biting the bullet on researching Sailing/Shipbuilding without the boosts. This would buy some time while waiting for the boosts to come in on Iron Working, Construction, and Engineering while still making useful strategic progress by getting a couple of units out on the water.

* Civics research is easy: Recorded History into Theology into Games and Recreation since there's no other choice. No real choices to make here at the moment.

I will switch to diplomatic league to doubleenvoy Akkad and switch back afterwards.

Ummm, why do this? Akkad is a Militaristic city state, was the plan to invest the envoy simply for the +2 production in the capital when training military units? Surely you don't want extra production from barracks/stables or Akkad's unique ability of "Melee and anti-cavalry units' attacks do full damage to the city's walls". I'd save your envoys for something more useful. Getting 3 envoys with the Scientific city state would be worth +6 beakers instantly (+2 from base ability and +4 from the pair of libraries) and that would be far more useful. You're going to pick up an envoy from Theology civic, and that plus the one in hand is enough to get up to 3 envoys instantly using the 2 for 1 Diplomatic policy card. Why not save the envoys for city states that actually matter?

Thanks again for writing so much.

Activity breeds activity. More input from you guys motivates more comprehensive information posts by me. Thanks for lurking.

Yeah, we need to establish temples to really take advantage of choral music.

You really do not like Spice Melange do you?

I agree with your analysis on Just do It and Act on Instinct.

Concerning the waterwheel, I think we want to get it out asap. Maybe even buy it for the 3rd envoy for Fez.

We need to go directly for Construction to inspire Games and Recreation.

Good news, we need that envoy for Fez.

[williams482]

I think purchasing a watermill sounds like a good plan. Where do we want to put it?

Hell March - allows us to hard-build most easily, if we find we'd rather do something else with the cash. Boosts three tiles, two of which are swappable.
Fogger - probably the most desperate need for additional food. Boosts two third ring wheat, both of which are swappable, and one of which is unlikely to be improved especially soon.
Atrides: Maximum potential yield increase, new city with three floodplain wheat and no other food bonuses. All three eventually swappable.

I think I'd vote for Fogger on the basis that speeding up AH could save us some serious faith, but both of the others are reasonable.

[williams482]

Another note, your overview of the tactical situation along the front is sensible and educational. I look forward to further analysis of unit micro if we do find ourselves in a combat situation.

[Sullla]

More interesting stuff, making contact with Alhambram is nice to keep tabs on his progress. And definitely better to hold the envoy for use in Scientific Fez rather than one of the other city states on the starting continent. I'll post some thoughts on the current turn first and then discuss the wider state of the game afterwards.

* Great news regarding the Act On Instict spot, the Great Writer can hold the tile for the moment and there will be enough faith for a settler next turn. Act On Instict will grow very fast with that amazing 4/1/1 tile and even gets a 2 production plains hill center tile. We know where the Campus district is going there (northwest of the city center in a 5 beaker adjacency spot) but where does the Lavra go? Or is this finally the first city to skip the Lavra entirely and focus on Campus and Commercial districts? Something to be thinking about over the next few turns.

* After the settler, I think the next faith purchase is a missionary. Cities convert easiest at low population totals and the 3 charges from a missionary should be able to convert Funky, Just Do It, and Act On Instinct. They need religion present to make use of Choral Music (Funky is probably going to do a shrine in the near future) and, eventually, Defender of the Faith. Then you can get another missionary after settler #8 to convert Atreides, Timbermist, and Spice Melange together as a group.

* Really awesome to see Atreides established and Timbermist on the way, excellent defense against those barbarians to keep all the settlers on time and no units lost. Does Russia become the first civ to 6 cities when Timbermist goes up in two turns?

* Regarding Hypatia: definitely the right call in retrospect, made much easier by seeing Alhambram's science this turn. It was much better to take Hypatia and leave him with the crummy Aryabhata instead. Australia's 53 beakers/turn is a real threat and doubly so for being on a continent (we think?) with suboptimal and pindicator who are struggling. There's some catchup potential here though: Natural Philosophy policy arrives next turn and is worth 8 beakers/turn, then dropping an envoy into Fez with the 2 for 1 policy card is worth another 2 beakers. That gets Russia up to 46 beakers/turn immediately. If you drop the envoy from Theology into Fez for the three envoy bonus, that's another 4 beakers/turn from the two libraries currently built in Russia. And with significantly more cities than Australia (soon to be 6 to his 3), overall population growth will eventually outscale Alhambram.

Don't get me wrong, he's definitely ahead and will be for some time to come. Australia's science will keep going up over time as well. But the good news is that Australia isn't way ahead in Campus districts or anything, he looks to have exactly two of them finished just like Russia. I suspect Alhambram is getting some huge adjacency bonuses by virtue of being Australia and probably has contact with both Fez and the other mystery Scientific city state. Russia will outscale Australia in time if you keep pushing out those faith-purchased settlers. Now we just have to cross our fingers that Alhambram doesn't walk all over suboptimal and pindicator.

* On watermills: the obvious play seems to be purchasing a watermill in Atreides. This is a much better choice than Fogger for several reasons:

1) Atriedes has more wheat tiles to benefit from the watermill, three compared to two. (And the dry wheat south of Fogger is serious bait for harvesting; I doubt it ever gets a farm. That wheat tile is also Fogger's best spot for a Campus district if it ever builds one.)

2) Atreides has amazing production and solely needs food to be a great city. Purchasing a watermill neatly solves this problem by opening up several 4/1 wheat tiles. Then it grows onto those lovely forested hill tiles from there and kicks some major behind.

3) Atreides has less natural production right now. When rush-purchasing things with gold/faith, it's better to spend on a city that has weaker natural production, all other things being equal. Basically Fogger doesn't need a watermill while Atreides benefits enormously from one.

A watermill costs 320 gold so that's just about 5 more turns at the current rate. It's expensive but probably the best use of gold right now, landing a key tech boost and greatly speeding along a city's development.

* Big question for the turn: which governor are you taking with the incoming promotion? I think the choices are the same troika we've been mentionining before: Magnus, Liang, and Amani in some order. There's a case to be made for any of them, and you should be thinking about where to station whichever governor gets chosen. I think the most straightforward move would be selecting Magnus, stationing him in Funky, and using one or two of the forests at the city for chops (the forest southeast of the truffles can be cut down with no loss at all).

There's a wilder plan though that I'm not even sure is worthwhile. Are you ready for this? Take Amani and post her to Fez along with spending the 2 for 1 envoy there. When Amani gets established in 5 turns, Russia becomes the suzerain of Fez and opens up its unique ability: Each time you convert a city for the first time earn 20 Science per Population of that city. This is typically garbage but it would line up with the missionary faith purchase that converts Funky, Just Do It, and Act On Instict. If those three cities get converted, you're looking at probably 8-9 population points, 80-90 beakers in total. This also allows you to save on spending any more envoys at Fez while still getting +4 beakers from having the 3 envoy bonus, then pick up the third envoy naturally from landing the Games and Recreation boost.

Now will that even work in practice? I have no idea. Alhambram could go up to 4 envoys and deny the suzerain bonus, and for that matter it might be better just to claim Magnus right away. I thought I would throw this out there as a zany idea and see if it was at all useful. Imagine getting actual value from the FEZ suzerain ability!

* Last immediate question: where's research heading next? Any interest in the (unboosted) Sailing into Shipbuilding idea I threw out previously? Or maybe you research Construction up to 60% completion so that the purchased watermill instantly finishes it? That's probably the best option to be honest. Civics are pretty much locked into Theology then Games and Recreation but there's a bit more freedom when it comes to teching.

[TheArchduke]

I think purchasing a watermill sounds like a good plan. Where do we want to put it?

Hell March - allows us to hard-build most easily, if we find we'd rather do something else with the cash. Boosts three tiles, two of which are swappable.
Fogger - probably the most desperate need for additional food. Boosts two third ring wheat, both of which are swappable, and one of which is unlikely to be improved especially soon.
Atrides: Maximum potential yield increase, new city with three floodplain wheat and no other food bonuses. All three eventually swappable.

I think I'd vote for Fogger on the basis that speeding up AH could save us some serious faith, but both of the others are reasonable.

I think I would go with Atreides. Not only are three tiles the most benefit, but Fogger will be subject to Volcano Explosions which drop Pop. 

Another note, your overview of the tactical situation along the front is sensible and educational. I look forward to further analysis of unit micro if we do find ourselves in a combat situation.

Thanks, it does help to visualize possible engagements beforehand. I also find the war aspect of CIV VI (in MP mind you) a lot more stimulating then I ever did with CIV IV or CIV V. There is a strong whiff of nostalgia around CIV which involves basically creating Doomstacks to fight the other player´s doomstacks which never did appeal to me.

More interesting stuff, making contact with Alhambram is nice to keep tabs on his progress. And definitely better to hold the envoy for use in Scientific Fez rather than one of the other city states on the starting continent. I'll post some thoughts on the current turn first and then discuss the wider state of the game afterwards.

* Great news regarding the Act On Instict spot, the Great Writer can hold the tile for the moment and there will be enough faith for a settler next turn. Act On Instict will grow very fast with that amazing 4/1/1 tile and even gets a 2 production plains hill center tile. We know where the Campus district is going there (northwest of the city center in a 5 beaker adjacency spot) but where does the Lavra go? Or is this finally the first city to skip the Lavra entirely and focus on Campus and Commercial districts? Something to be thinking about over the next few turns.

* After the settler, I think the next faith purchase is a missionary. Cities convert easiest at low population totals and the 3 charges from a missionary should be able to convert Funky, Just Do It, and Act On Instinct. They need religion present to make use of Choral Music (Funky is probably going to do a shrine in the near future) and, eventually, Defender of the Faith. Then you can get another missionary after settler #8 to convert Atreides, Timbermist, and Spice Melange together as a group.

* Really awesome to see Atreides established and Timbermist on the way, excellent defense against those barbarians to keep all the settlers on time and no units lost. Does Russia become the first civ to 6 cities when Timbermist goes up in two turns?

* Regarding Hypatia: definitely the right call in retrospect, made much easier by seeing Alhambram's science this turn. It was much better to take Hypatia and leave him with the crummy Aryabhata instead. Australia's 53 beakers/turn is a real threat and doubly so for being on a continent (we think?) with suboptimal and pindicator who are struggling. There's some catchup potential here though: Natural Philosophy policy arrives next turn and is worth 8 beakers/turn, then dropping an envoy into Fez with the 2 for 1 policy card is worth another 2 beakers. That gets Russia up to 46 beakers/turn immediately. If you drop the envoy from Theology into Fez for the three envoy bonus, that's another 4 beakers/turn from the two libraries currently built in Russia. And with significantly more cities than Australia (soon to be 6 to his 3), overall population growth will eventually outscale Alhambram.

Don't get me wrong, he's definitely ahead and will be for some time to come. Australia's science will keep going up over time as well. But the good news is that Australia isn't way ahead in Campus districts or anything, he looks to have exactly two of them finished just like Russia. I suspect Alhambram is getting some huge adjacency bonuses by virtue of being Australia and probably has contact with both Fez and the other mystery Scientific city state. Russia will outscale Australia in time if you keep pushing out those faith-purchased settlers. Now we just have to cross our fingers that Alhambram doesn't walk all over suboptimal and pindicator.

* On watermills: the obvious play seems to be purchasing a watermill in Atreides. This is a much better choice than Fogger for several reasons:

1) Atriedes has more wheat tiles to benefit from the watermill, three compared to two. (And the dry wheat south of Fogger is serious bait for harvesting; I doubt it ever gets a farm. That wheat tile is also Fogger's best spot for a Campus district if it ever builds one.)

2) Atreides has amazing production and solely needs food to be a great city. Purchasing a watermill neatly solves this problem by opening up several 4/1 wheat tiles. Then it grows onto those lovely forested hill tiles from there and kicks some major behind.

3) Atreides has less natural production right now. When rush-purchasing things with gold/faith, it's better to spend on a city that has weaker natural production, all other things being equal. Basically Fogger doesn't need a watermill while Atreides benefits enormously from one.

A watermill costs 320 gold so that's just about 5 more turns at the current rate. It's expensive but probably the best use of gold right now, landing a key tech boost and greatly speeding along a city's development.

* Big question for the turn: which governor are you taking with the incoming promotion? I think the choices are the same troika we've been mentionining before: Magnus, Liang, and Amani in some order. There's a case to be made for any of them, and you should be thinking about where to station whichever governor gets chosen. I think the most straightforward move would be selecting Magnus, stationing him in Funky, and using one or two of the forests at the city for chops (the forest southeast of the truffles can be cut down with no loss at all).

There's a wilder plan though that I'm not even sure is worthwhile. Are you ready for this? Take Amani and post her to Fez along with spending the 2 for 1 envoy there. When Amani gets established in 5 turns, Russia becomes the suzerain of Fez and opens up its unique ability: Each time you convert a city for the first time earn 20 Science per Population of that city. This is typically garbage but it would line up with the missionary faith purchase that converts Funky, Just Do It, and Act On Instict. If those three cities get converted, you're looking at probably 8-9 population points, 80-90 beakers in total. This also allows you to save on spending any more envoys at Fez while still getting +4 beakers from having the 3 envoy bonus, then pick up the third envoy naturally from landing the Games and Recreation boost.

Now will that even work in practice? I have no idea. Alhambram could go up to 4 envoys and deny the suzerain bonus, and for that matter it might be better just to claim Magnus right away. I thought I would throw this out there as a zany idea and see if it was at all useful. Imagine getting actual value from the FEZ suzerain ability!

* Last immediate question: where's research heading next? Any interest in the (unboosted) Sailing into Shipbuilding idea I threw out previously? Or maybe you research Construction up to 60% completion so that the purchased watermill instantly finishes it? That's probably the best option to be honest. Civics are pretty much locked into Theology then Games and Recreation but there's a bit more freedom when it comes to teching.

Alhambram just made it to number one of our problem priority. Contact has been made over Fez which by him via the suzerain mechanic I assume. (contact was on the same tile as with Fez).

Act on Instinct is great news. I fully expected him to stay on the tile which would have made my dotmap a living hell over there. Campus first. Lavra depends on if I can get Eastern Rampart (yet to be named) going. Else I would actually prefer campus + encampment over there.

Yeah, a missionary after that for DotF so we are not caught with our pants down.

Nope, Rome already has 6 cities.

As said, watermill in Atreides by buying with money. It worries me a bit because I like a warchest handy, but we do not want Alhambram to control Fez. So we want to eureka construction as soon as we hit that iron mine. (2turns)

I like your crazy Amani/Fez plan. We are in no rush to Magnus (thanks to Ancestral Hall) and we could get scouting information (always REALLY important), throw Alhambram out if he dows or we do and in general get ahead. Amani gives flexibility. The + 20 is just icing on the cake. 

I support your Shipbuilding plan until a turn ago (to contact the northern CS I spotted back in turn 30). But thanks to our immense culture our timetable to get construction before Games and Recreation is tight. I actually need to avoid boosting culture for the next 5-6 turns.

[Sullla]

Another day with no new turn offers a chance to go back and weigh in on the wider game state. If I have two general observations about this game thus far, it's that the turn pace has been poor (even here in the early stages where it shouldn't take long to run the turns) and reporting seems to have been limited. It looks like this thread and suboptimal are the only ones getting regular updates and that's too bad. I wonder what happened with the three players on the other continent (?) since they seem to have a lot more military and much weaker overall civ development, everyone other than Alhambram anyway. Let me go back to TheArchduke's big update from a few days ago and walk through some thoughts on the other players and big picture stuff.

TheBlackSword/Cree: The strongest overall game played thus far in my opinion. TBS is keeping pace on expansion with five cities and has excellent science/culture despite Cree not having any civ abilities that produce them. This looks like a good map for their Mekewap tile improvement since there are luxury and bonus resources literally everywhere. Declaration of Friendship expires in about 15 turns (Turn 82) and Russia will need to train some more military before it runs out. Longterm strategic position for TBS isn't great since he borders two of the strongest opponents on the map in Russia and Rome. I would be more concerned if TBS had a weak neighbor to feast on.

My current recommendation? Reoffer a DoF and outgrow him with faith settlers. My expectation? No DoF and an attack in about 25 turns. We will see if he builds a 6th city or not.

I agree with this assessment: try to maintain peace if at all possible with TBS. A war in the near future doesn't serve Russia's interests at all. Hopefully with decent military strength and Defender of the Faith as a deterrent, TBS will look elsewhere if he's planning agression.

Cornflakes/Rome: He's about where I expect Rome to be at this stage of the game, leading the field with 6 cities and tops in culture. With that said though, Cornflakes is only 1 civic ahead and he hasn't managed to jump out to a big cultural advantage despite getting 12 free culture from monuments. He also doesn't have anything more than an average military (and no Great General points on the way) which is an odd position for Rome to be in. I honestly thought that Rome would be stronger at this stage of the game since Rome's advantages are so front-loaded in Civ6. Cornflakes is excellent at developing an economy in Civ6, but if there's a knock on him as a player, it's that he's never shown much in the way of aggression. Greece and Cree both seem to have settled towards Rome and Cornflakes is running out of room for more cities. Rome is also seriously lacking in districts - his science/culture yields are coming almost entirely from the free monuments and having more total cities due to Early Empire access. For whatever reason, we aren't seeing an army of legions getting ready to hit Greece to conquer more territory, and I'm not sure what the endgame goal is for this civ. Dangerous for the time being but will become less so as the turns continue if Cornflakes can't make some kind of conquest happen.

Kaiser/Greece: Far behind in everything, looks certain to be run over at some point by another player. The Holy Site is a completely baffling choice for a player who's already behind and will put him further behind. Ideally he holds out long enough for Russia to sweep in and take the spoils at a later date. Russia will need to push east towards Greece's borders over the next 30-50 turns in the hopes of being able to claim territory when Kaiser inevitably bows out of the game.

Alhambram/Australia: Great teching and surprisingly weak elsewhere. Empire score is only slightly higher than Greece (44 to 42) with only three cities on the map. I think he's not as strong as that beaker total would suggest, the other power players (Russia, Cree, Rome) are going to catch up quickly in science with their extra cities. The biggest thing Alhambram has going in his favor is a pair of weak neighbors (we think) who might prove to be easy prey down the road. Not much you can do at this point other than keep an eye on the situation and do some scouting once units can embark on the water.

Finally and most importantly, there's the position of Russia. I think the overall situation is quite good in big picture terms. Russia gets out to a slower start due to the need to sink production into Lavra districts and then makes it up over time by investing the resulting faith. Based on the screenshot comparison from a few turns ago, Russia is about to tie for the city count lead at 6, Russia is 1 civic behind, and a slightly further back 4 techs behind Australia (2 techs behind Cree/Rome). That's a bit better than I was expecting for this stage of the game, I thought Russia would be further behind and need to catch up further. I'm particularly pleased at how many more districts Russia has finished compared to the other leaders. They're going to find it much harder to activate the discount formula without those cheap Lavras to rely upon. Russia also still hasn't gotten any benefit from Defender of the Faith yet and Choral Music has kicked in on exactly one building (a single shrine). Other players can build monuments right now and that's pretty much it for easy culture while Russia will be able to continue onwards with temples and shrines. There's massive untapped potential here that's only going to grow more useful as the game continues.

So what's the general path forward? The ultimate goal should be leveraging cossacks to run over someone else down the road. Cossacks should arrive sometime in the Turn 125-150 range and planning should be geared towards that end. There is absolutely no reason to fight a war before that point in time, not with huge empty spaces still to be settled off in the east. Right now, it seems pretty clear to me that Russia trains enough military to stay safe and focuses on continuing to expand with faith-purchased settlers. Build Mahabodi at some point to grab two more useful religious beliefs, try to get out to 15 cities, and outscale the other players with more cities and more districts and all of the religious benefits that no one else will be claiming.

I have no idea if the other players will allow that to happen but I think that's the general route forward.

[TheArchduke]

Another day with no new turn offers a chance to go back and weigh in on the wider game state. If I have two general observations about this game thus far, it's that the turn pace has been poor (even here in the early stages where it shouldn't take long to run the turns) and reporting seems to have been limited. It looks like this thread and suboptimal are the only ones getting regular updates and that's too bad. I wonder what happened with the three players on the other continent (?) since they seem to have a lot more military and much weaker overall civ development, everyone other than Alhambram anyway. Let me go back to TheArchduke's big update from a few days ago and walk through some thoughts on the other players and big picture stuff.

TheBlackSword/Cree: The strongest overall game played thus far in my opinion. TBS is keeping pace on expansion with five cities and has excellent science/culture despite Cree not having any civ abilities that produce them. This looks like a good map for their Mekewap tile improvement since there are luxury and bonus resources literally everywhere. Declaration of Friendship expires in about 15 turns (Turn 82) and Russia will need to train some more military before it runs out. Longterm strategic position for TBS isn't great since he borders two of the strongest opponents on the map in Russia and Rome. I would be more concerned if TBS had a weak neighbor to feast on.

My current recommendation? Reoffer a DoF and outgrow him with faith settlers. My expectation? No DoF and an attack in about 25 turns. We will see if he builds a 6th city or not.

I agree with this assessment: try to maintain peace if at all possible with TBS. A war in the near future doesn't serve Russia's interests at all. Hopefully with decent military strength and Defender of the Faith as a deterrent, TBS will look elsewhere if he's planning agression.

Cornflakes/Rome: He's about where I expect Rome to be at this stage of the game, leading the field with 6 cities and tops in culture. With that said though, Cornflakes is only 1 civic ahead and he hasn't managed to jump out to a big cultural advantage despite getting 12 free culture from monuments. He also doesn't have anything more than an average military (and no Great General points on the way) which is an odd position for Rome to be in. I honestly thought that Rome would be stronger at this stage of the game since Rome's advantages are so front-loaded in Civ6. Cornflakes is excellent at developing an economy in Civ6, but if there's a knock on him as a player, it's that he's never shown much in the way of aggression. Greece and Cree both seem to have settled towards Rome and Cornflakes is running out of room for more cities. Rome is also seriously lacking in districts - his science/culture yields are coming almost entirely from the free monuments and having more total cities due to Early Empire access. For whatever reason, we aren't seeing an army of legions getting ready to hit Greece to conquer more territory, and I'm not sure what the endgame goal is for this civ. Dangerous for the time being but will become less so as the turns continue if Cornflakes can't make some kind of conquest happen.

Kaiser/Greece: Far behind in everything, looks certain to be run over at some point by another player. The Holy Site is a completely baffling choice for a player who's already behind and will put him further behind. Ideally he holds out long enough for Russia to sweep in and take the spoils at a later date. Russia will need to push east towards Greece's borders over the next 30-50 turns in the hopes of being able to claim territory when Kaiser inevitably bows out of the game.

Alhambram/Australia: Great teching and surprisingly weak elsewhere. Empire score is only slightly higher than Greece (44 to 42) with only three cities on the map. I think he's not as strong as that beaker total would suggest, the other power players (Russia, Cree, Rome) are going to catch up quickly in science with their extra cities. The biggest thing Alhambram has going in his favor is a pair of weak neighbors (we think) who might prove to be easy prey down the road. Not much you can do at this point other than keep an eye on the situation and do some scouting once units can embark on the water.

Finally and most importantly, there's the position of Russia. I think the overall situation is quite good in big picture terms. Russia gets out to a slower start due to the need to sink production into Lavra districts and then makes it up over time by investing the resulting faith. Based on the screenshot comparison from a few turns ago, Russia is about to tie for the city count lead at 6, Russia is 1 civic behind, and a slightly further back 4 techs behind Australia (2 techs behind Cree/Rome). That's a bit better than I was expecting for this stage of the game, I thought Russia would be further behind and need to catch up further. I'm particularly pleased at how many more districts Russia has finished compared to the other leaders. They're going to find it much harder to activate the discount formula without those cheap Lavras to rely upon. Russia also still hasn't gotten any benefit from Defender of the Faith yet and Choral Music has kicked in on exactly one building (a single shrine). Other players can build monuments right now and that's pretty much it for easy culture while Russia will be able to continue onwards with temples and shrines. There's massive untapped potential here that's only going to grow more useful as the game continues.

So what's the general path forward? The ultimate goal should be leveraging cossacks to run over someone else down the road. Cossacks should arrive sometime in the Turn 125-150 range and planning should be geared towards that end. There is absolutely no reason to fight a war before that point in time, not with huge empty spaces still to be settled off in the east. Right now, it seems pretty clear to me that Russia trains enough military to stay safe and focuses on continuing to expand with faith-purchased settlers. Build Mahabodi at some point to grab two more useful religious beliefs, try to get out to 15 cities, and outscale the other players with more cities and more districts and all of the religious benefits that no one else will be claiming.

I have no idea if the other players will allow that to happen but I think that's the general route forward.

Turnpace has been atrocious. If the playerbase was bigger, I would actually lean towards giving this game over just because of that. Pindicator and suboptimal are the biggest delays here:

https://www.playyourdamnturn.com/game/5c...efaad0080c

I have had my share of PBEMs not going my way and the best you can do is do your turn quickly so that it finishes quicker not drag it out to punish the people who are better off ingame. Sigh.


Analysis. I agree on TBS. I need to switch over to military builds. We are low on ranged and pure strength. My current recommendation is about 3-4 archers and 3-4 horseman at a minimum. It would also enable us to kill 1-2 CS whilst we are at it.

Cornflakes is a bit too peaceful and probably burned from last PBEM. This is unfortunate, the Cree could use a good pounding.

Alhambram is an experimental player judging from last time. I think he is going tall on purpose and I do not think that this is a good idea. With so few cities, I doubt he can use his science edge to conquer suboptimal and/or pindicator which is what I would do.

I agree that our priority needs to be development, there is a decent chance we can pull away and any military action serves an equalizer (with a risk) that we do not need atm.

Concerning turnpace and player base in general, Sullla, I can only recommend you throwing your hat into the ring another time. It would surely attract some people if you played a PBEM.

[Sullla]

You don't need to go overboard on military either. No one is spiking particularly hard on your continent right now and the Declarations of Friendship don't run out for a little bit. I'd get the discounted Commercial district up in Hell March after the current builder finishes, and then that would be the time to produce a few archers/horsemen after that. TBS hasn't shown much in the way of aggression yet and everyone else is too far away to pose a threat.