[SPOILER] - Suboptimal finds trees, still seeks forest

[suboptimal]

Turn 67

All is quiet when I open the save. I start out by moving the horsemen south, moving the builder at Hasselback towards the 7-yield tile and mining the diamonds at Dauphinoise. That last one gets the eureka for Apprenticeship and an amenity. Working the PFH the city would grow in 14 turns. I decide, for the time being, to get the extra income and move the citizen over to the diamonds. That slows the city’s growth to 20 turns but adds 5 to income, making our current income 21.4 per turn. The last builder charge is going to be spent on the Nubian Pyramid. That will get us a 41 tile to work and I can use that to move the city along to the next population.

Fondant grew in population and acquired the rice tile. I forgot to move Magnus down here last turn and do so now. In looking at the tile yields I can either work a second jungle hill to complete the Campus in 6 turns and grow pop in 10 turns or work the rice tile, grow pop in 6 turns and finish the Campus in 8 turns. I stay in the higher production configuration for now. The builder from Dauphinoise will be at Fondant in 7 turns. I’ll complete the Campus, switch to high food until the city grows to 4 population then chop & mine a jungle to get a jump towards 5 population and some into walls. The last builder charge will farm the rice here.

In the Nubian Desert the archer tops the nearby sheep hill.




I can’t back off the hill because of that scout. Since I need the XP and don’t feel like moving Pindicator’s warrior towards a promotion I shoot the scout. That gets the scout 83 damage and gets me 6XP. Using the broken GUI combat tool tip and a warrior by Fondant I determine that the Khmer warrior is presently alone. The first horseman will be just NE of the tea archer in two turns, so I need to figure out what to do about that warrior. If the scout moves off maybe I’ll potshot the warrior and try to convince Pindicator to move it south a row. That’ll let me move the other two archers into the flats just north of the hills and make way for the horsemen. He also has a warrior garrison in Res Publica and looks like an archer garrison in Wealth of Nations.

Alhambram has met a third unmet player and Cornflakes has a settler out. Alhambram may be running Strategos. He’s got 14 GGP and is gaining two per turn.

[CFCJesterFool]

   
Had a look around. If it were me, I'd tile buy the better long term commercial hub spot for Dauphinoise. Dauphinoise definitely wants the commercial hub and encampment before the harbor but encampment first is what I would suggest. You will need Great General points.

[suboptimal]

Interesting placement. The thing I'm not quite sure about is putting a harbor and a commercial hub in the same city. You typically want one or the other in order to get the trade route. Dauphinoise, in particular, can't work enough of the coastal tiles to make improving that Harbor worth anything much more than the adjacency bonuses (+2 to each CH, +4 intrinsic) and I question the amount of production required to get it for the return to the city. If Dauphinoise would put a third district down it could be a Campus on the PFH northwest of the commercial hubs. However, that also begs the question of whether the Dauph Coast city should build both a Harbor and a Commercial Hub.

I'd almost say if we want a Harbor in that position then we could found a city on the tile SE of the Bayuda Volcanic Fields (NE of the wheat) and then have that city build the Harbor. It would get much more benefit out of a Harbor + lighthouse than Dauphinoise would get out of a Harbor. That would invalidate the central location we were pinmapping in the area north of the volcano, though.

In going back through a few of the prior PBEMs I've noticed that both Cornflakes and Archduke have tended to get down Theater Squares to increase culture output when they didn't have a specific ability or unit to do so (Archduke as the Dutch built several, Cornflakes also built several in PBEM 11 though the Brazilians get adjacency bonuses from jungles). While we don't have good adjacencies for the districts themselves it could be possible to get a couple down in locations for which Nubian Pyramids can generate some culture. For example, putting a Theater District in Dauphinoise on the floodplain NW of the pyramid would provide 0 by itself but three nubian pyramids could go up around it. The district would also likely be discounted by the time we placed it. At some point we're going to need something to increase our cultural output besides population and policy cards and Theater Squares might fit the bill. If we wanted a cheap wonder to get some adjacency then we could build the Great Bath 2NW of Dauphinoise and put TS districts to either side. That'd make the districts +2 each, the intended Nubian pyramid picks up some and another one could eventually go down between the turtles and the diamonds.

The fact that you can open the save, though, shows that you're all set up and ready to take over when I leave on vacation.

[CFCJesterFool]

Interesting placement.  The thing I'm not quite sure about is putting a harbor and a commercial hub in the same city.  You typically want one or the other in order to get the trade route.  Dauphinoise, in particular, can't work enough of the coastal tiles to make improving that Harbor worth anything much more than the adjacency bonuses (+2 to each CH, +4 intrinsic) and I question the amount of production required to get it for the return to the city.  If Dauphinoise would put a third district down it could be a Campus on the PFH northwest of the commercial hubs.  However, that also begs the question of whether the Dauph Coast city should build both a Harbor and a Commercial Hub.

I'd almost say if we want a Harbor in that position then we could found a city on the tile SE of the Bayuda Volcanic Fields (NE of the wheat) and then have that city build the Harbor.  It would get much more benefit out of a Harbor + lighthouse than Dauphinoise would get out of a Harbor.  That would invalidate the central location we were pinmapping in the area north of the volcano, though.

In going back through a few of the prior PBEMs I've noticed that both Cornflakes and Archduke have tended to get down Theater Squares to increase culture output when they didn't have a specific ability or unit to do so (Archduke as the Dutch built several, Cornflakes also built several in PBEM 11 though the Brazilians get adjacency bonuses from jungles).  While we don't have good adjacencies for the districts themselves it could be possible to get a couple down in locations for which Nubian Pyramids can generate some culture.  For example, putting a Theater District in Dauphinoise on the floodplain NW of the pyramid would provide 0 by itself but three nubian pyramids could go up around it.  The district would also likely be discounted by the time we placed it.  At some point we're going to need something to increase our cultural output besides population and policy cards and Theater Squares might fit the bill.  If we wanted a cheap wonder to get some adjacency then we could build the Great Bath 2NW of Dauphinoise and put TS districts to either side.  That'd make the districts +2 each, the intended Nubian pyramid picks up some and another one could eventually go down between the turtles and the diamonds.

The fact that you can open the save, though, shows that you're all set up and ready to take over when I leave on vacation.

Of course everything is flexible (and the Dauphinoise coast site isn't even settled.) My main point is the relative value of the coast in placing districts versus the original commercial district spot. I still think Encampment first is better. I'd say Pyramids afterwards would be better than a +2 commercial hub. You make a great point that a city NE of the wheat could get that harbor spot. If you landed the Pyramids, Mashed is in range to place down a theatre district next to the Pyramids (+2) and Dauphinoise could as well, so maybe Dauphinoise would be better off with Encampment/Theatre as the first two districts. Imo, Great Bath probably not the most useful wonder to build.

[suboptimal]

I keep going back and forth on the idea of the Pyramids. On the one hand it'd be great to have, gain us some needed and give us two locations for Theater Squares. OTOH, is that 220 more useful going into other things now? Completing the pyramids could be done at a cost of 75 (tile purchase), one builder charge for a forest chop (~45 yield) and 11-12 turns of construction. It does get us a free builder with four charges that could be used up at Mashed (we need four builder charges up there for amenities hookups + Celestial Navigation boost + two forest chops into settlers).

Timing-wise the builder is available on Turn 70. Mashed's settler starts moving out on Turn 71. I am intending on holdng D&P from completion until that settler was almost done so that I could get a policy swap to take out Colonization while Mashed built the Ancestral Hall. I could slot Corvee to speed things up. That would make the chop worth almost 52 and the build time would be about 10 turns (we have 9 overflow from the builder as well). That seems like a reasonable build time and the free builder could get up to Mashed to chop the first settler out in good time.

CMF/Banzailizard, any thoughts on the matter of the Pyramids?

The dotmap also doesn't work out for a coastal city near Dauphinoise. That location prevents the placement of a city between the volcano and the mountains to the NW and that's an overall stronger location. One adjustment I will make to the pinmap with that city, though, it to move the Aqueduct and Campus next to the volcano. Yes, it's living dangerousy but it preserves higher-yield tiles for the city to chop & work and gets the Campus a better adjacency (+4 with the Aqueduct).

[suboptimal]

Battle Plans

Nubian Desert

The green and yellow markers correspond to the horsemen currently at Hasselback. Green horse is currently on the jungle hill SW of the city center, yellow horse is in the city.

I am currently planning a policy swap on Turn 70 to get Colonization deslotted. If we decide to make a push for the pyramids do we want to leave Oligarchy for Autocracy? That boosts the pyramids builds and would let us run Corvee, Urban Planning, Conscription and Limitanei. Staying in Oligarchy is better for war but we’d have to decide between Corvee and Urban Planning (or leaving Limitanei out).

Preparatory Movements (T68 through T71)




Horses: they will reach the approximate positions noted by the green & yellow dots due east of Nazca during Turn 69. Their exact location depends on where the Nazcan archer moves. The dots are “worst case” if the archer doesn’t move off the tea by Turn 69. If the archer returns to and stays in Nazcan territory then the horses will be one further tile SW. Over the next two turns they move as indicated. The goal is to have the horsemen in the flat on Turn 71.

Red Archer: Turn 68 movement will depend on the Khmer warrior. If it stays put then the archer will shoot. If it disappears out of sight then the archer will move 1E and possibly shoot. It will repeat that process on Turn 69. The objective is to force the warrior to move one tile row south before Turn 70. On Turn 70 the archer would head onto the flat geothermal fissure and then back onto the hill on Turn 71, shooting at any target of opportunity

Blue and White Archers: They hold position until Turn 70, as this will keep the pass open for the horsemen. On Turn 70 they move into the flats and on Turn 71 top the desert hills and join red archer in shooting any available targets. The currently fogged tile will be defogged by the white archer.

Battle Plan (T72 onwards)




On Turn 72 the archers hold their positions and the horsemen advance past them. On Turn 73 everyone but red archer advances. On Turn 74 the horses move up and attack the city as shown. On Turn 75, if everything has survived contact with the enemy, the horses should be able to take the city with archer support.

Blue and white archers move as indicated on Turns 73 and 74, being able to shoot anything is range (or the city) on Turn 74. If the fogged tile is a 1MP tile then the white archer will continue to the wheat and attack the city on that turn. Red archer holds position until Turn 75, then starts advancing. Blue archer only moves as indicated if the city is not taken on Turn 75.

If we take the city we will keep it and try to maintain loyalty through the usual means. This might mean bringing Magnus down for a little while. However, if Wealth of Nations goes well we might have a little less loyalty to worry about.

Abarath River Valley

Preparatory Movements (T68 through T71)




Turn 68: Yellow & green archers shift west. Yellow archer gains visibility and shoots at anything on the black start tile.Red & Blue archers shift east and SE, respectively. The blue archer’s advance will let us know if Alhambram’s rentals are lurking nearby.

Turn 69: If black star is empty then green & yellow advance as shown. Otherwise yellow shoots and green advances and shoots. This will give visibility to the row of tiles directly north of Wealth of Nation’s borders but not allow any units there to see us. Red & blue move as indicated and hold position, though blue will shoot if there’s a unit NE of the city.

Turn 70: Blue archer moves first, ducking into Khmer territory to check the eastern jungle diamond. If that tile is clear or there’s a warrior in it then the green & yellow archers advance SE to the copper tiles (the dots) and blue gets back out of Khmer territory. If that tile has an archer on it then the blue archer will shoot at it, followed by the yellow archer advancing and shooting it (hopefully killing it).

Turn 71: Blue archer moves to the desert hill to allow the warrior to move to the border (and possibly heal if shot at by a garrisoned archer). Yellow & green archers position themselves on the copper, or hold if they are already in position. If they both reached the copper on Turn 70 they swap positions so that Maris Piper (green) has the larger field of fire.

Purple & white warriors: The white warrior will move down the coast as space permits, working its way towards black star. Purple warrior will follow. White warrior should reach black star on turn 71, purple warrior should be NE of it on the same turn.

Battle Movements (T72 onwards)




For turns 72-73 the only units moving are the purple and white warriors. On turn 74 these two warriors, the cyan warrior and the red archer all advance into Khmer territory as drawn. The yellow and grreen archer also move up to provide support bonuses vs. melee attacks for the warriors and to keep covering the sheep pass. On Turn 75 the white and cyan warriors start their city attacks with the red archer also providing support. The warriors will shift based upon damage status, with cyan moving out NE and the other two shifting east to provide continued pressure on the city. Likewise the blue archer will heal up and swap places with the red archer if Pindicator decides to attack that instead of one of the warriors.

Because of the loyalty situation and lack of development at Wealth of Nations, if the city is taken again I intend to raze it and then send a settler to this location. I think relocating the city NE one tile is a better spot as it moves one of the copper into the first ring, gets both wheat within the second ring and provides a slightly better defensive position for anything approaching from the south.

If We Cross the Bassac River

If we take Res Publica and are able to funnel units across the river the priority will be to kill archers before warriors, as these are the bigger problem. This will also hopefully force Pindicator into a decision as to how to allocate his forces and ease the taking of Wealth of Nations as that one probably won't be capturable until T78 or so.

[Banzailizard]

I am inclined to say no to the pyramids. Your deficit is not in production it is in culture and science. Right now you need to deal with the issues of the short run since in the long run you might very well be dead (to paraphrase Keynes). I understand that it might offset some of the culture deficit but I am still not sure if it is still a good call. Those hammers can be spent in either producing more military (if you don't finish off Pin you do absolutely done at this point) or on campuses and theater squares. I would be interested in hearing CMF's thoughts though as I could see an argument for them.

[CFCJesterFool]

Autocracy is the better war government, by far (unless you go heavy on melee and anti-cavalry units or galleys/caravels/etc.). Ranged units, siege and any cavalry units don't benefit from the combat strength bonus and the experience bonus is meaningless unless stacked with Encampment buildings. I usually start Classical Republic (build government building to get Republican Legacy card since it is more useful than the other two cards) and switch to Autocracy to actually build whatever army I need. Most of the time staying in Autocracy during waring is fine although switching to Oligarchy sometimes makes sense. In this particular circumstance, you really don't have many melee units so it would be better to run a government with more military slots (and build swordsman using Agoge while running Conscription).

[suboptimal]

Turn 68

There’s a notification that Hamp’atu has had a gentle eruption, giving three tiles additional fertility. This is the second time that volcano has erupted in the past 10 turns, with the first eruption being on Turn 62. Though three tiles gained fertility it looks like one is the tile in the fog and the other may be the mountain to the west. The only visible affected tile is now a 3 tundra:




Looking around, the Khmer warrior in the Nubian Desert has disappeared into the fog. However, a Khmer warrior has appeared east of Fondant:




It also has two friends with it as shown by the warrior-selected mouseover, they are to the E and SE in the fog. I can only get to it with one archer if I move into the swamp, but I don’t quite want to do that. My warrior is in a safe postion – if there is archer support Pindicator can’t move them up and shoot on the same turn. He also can’t see any of my archers from his current position and if he advances west his warrior will be stuck (and killed). Time to call an audible here. The red archer (on the Campus) moves SE to the bananas. That reveals a Khmer archer on the black start tile. I shoot for 38 damage and 6XP. Yellow archer can move to the hill SE and kill it, falling 1XP short of the next promotion. The movement reveals the following:




(This was taken after killing the archer on black star)

As I saw in the Nubian Desert and know from the line of sight rules & guides, the archer and warrior to the south cannot see my archer. From their perspective the copper blocks their line of sight because it’s a higher tile than the ground that they are on. If he advances the warrior I can back up a tile and shoot. If he doesn’t then I’ll stay put and shoot the archer. As seen above, both units have a +4 support bonus so there’s at least one more unit in the fog, likely the western jungle diamond. If nothing changes I’ll potshot the archer, pause to take a promotion and then continue shelling those units until Pindicator retreats or they die.

Though I can see into the mountain pass right now I can’t see if anything is on the hill behind it. Blue archer moves SE one tile, sees that the desert hill east of the fissure is empty, and moves back to the grassland hill to await the arrival of Pin’s warrior next turn.

Time for some force analysis. There [s]are[s] were two archers, a warrior and something else to my south and there is a (so far) three unit group to my east. That’s about 150 milpower. I’m chasing a warrior in the Nubian Desert and as of last turn there was a warrior garrisoned in Res Publica. That’s another 40 or so milpower, so I’ve accounted for 190 (or so) of 268. This means that he’s got about half of his army committed to the river valley. I’m content to allow him to advance for the time being since he’s effectively walking into a meat grinder from the east and is a sitting duck in the south.

Over in the Nubian Desert theater the horsemen make their moves into the jungle. The forward archer moves east onto the hill and finds the Khmer warrior has moved east. It’s still alone. I can shoot at it or kill the barbarian scout. I do the latter and am now 3XP from a promotion for this archer.




In an ideal situation that northern Nazcan archer will move northeast next turn. That’ll allow me to get both horsemen past it. As for the Khmer warrior, moving east or southeast accomplishes the same thing for me – removes Pindicator’s visibility of the flat ground in the desert. I think I’ll move the forward archer east one more tile as that will defog that one tile to enable better planning. It’ll also tell me where Pindicator has moved his warrior (and let me see if it has friends nearby).

Strategic Note: Pindicator is building a horseman as his horse count this turn is 34. He’s likely building it in the capital. That’ll make things a bit more difficult. A single horseman, by itself, can be dealt with by the archers – it’d take three of them at single promotion or better to kill one in a single turn. I think I’ll have to pop into Iron Working and get that completed for a sword upgrade or two in the coming turns. It’ll take 7 turns to complete after Currency finishes after next turn. I also think Pyramids are a no-go with this development....after the builder I should get out another horseman or two for the river valley as warriors and archers is a tenuous defense vs. horsemen.

I swap from Drama & Poetry to Games & Recreation. I’ll swap back next turn after so that D&P completes with Dauphinoise’s builder. At Hasselback the monument is complete. The city has gained 2 though, which is mildly confusing. The monument provides +1 and I’m getting a second +1 from “modifiers”. My understanding is that the monument only provides 1 if the city is at full loyalty so I don’t know where that second culture is coming from. Fondant is showing the same thing. Hasselback was going to build a galley next but I haven’t completed Sailing so I start the Campus. That’ll be 8 turns to complete, perhaps a little less when I get the mine down next turn and the city grows the turn after.

Out by Australia my archer moves into some swamp and spies an Aussie warrior on a hill:




Internationally, Alhambram appears to have two settlers out (empire score down by two) and has suzerained Brussels. He has also placed an Industrial Zone (!) in Geelong.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

I'm having trouble commenting in depth because I feel out of the loop*, but I do urge you to remember your victory conditions as you debate the Pyramids and the like: If you don't conquer pindicator, you lose. Hell, if you DO conquer him we probably lose anyway at this point, but nevertheless. Remember the big picture - the whole civ should be built towards the goal of murdering Khmer and then Australia. 220 hammers in a (highly useful) vanity project feels like the Germans getting into a dreadnought race with Britain when what they really needed was U-boats.


*This is not a criticism of your reporting at all, which is as detailed and comprehensive as ever. I just have been only cursorily skimming through the reports instead of taking the time to refamiliarize myself with our present circumstances - the Korean school year started today, so since coming back from vacation it's been a scramble to get ready; the time I had during the winter break to read and digest reports from every single game on this website is sadly gone. In other words: It's not you, it's me!