Yeah, I'm kind of wondering, which effect is more important:
Attacker: The joy of doing naval attacks from ocean is pretty much gone.
Defender: There is less stress as there are less angles to worry about..
It kind of feels like a relevant part of the game is removed, but I can see that this might make the late game more enjoyable/manageable from RL perspective. I know that OH and Hitru have mixed feelings about the naval changes as well, but I'll let them speak for themselves..
But part of my problem with them is they just feel wrong from a realism standpoint. Ocean travel is faster and safer than coastal travel. Boats basically only slow down, sink, crash, etc when they get close to the crunchy edges.
I would be fine with ocean movement cisting more in early game but still having that for moders ships ( or even galleons ) just feels wrong. At very least there should be promo which gets rid of it completely, which could be available only for moders ships if that's what clear majority wants.
I voted for starting from the version used in pb43 as I feel like we have not really tested that version enough before we started making additional changes. But some civ changes etc that balance game out are fine from pb46 also
FYI, this poll is a nice illustration of Arrow Paradox. It seems like PB46 option is winning but what this poll actually shows is that the majority (14 against 12 at this moment) believes that we are going too far with the changes.
(April 24th, 2020, 00:48)Gavagai Wrote: FYI, this poll is a nice illustration of Arrow Paradox. It seems like PB46 option is winning but what this poll actually shows is that the majority (14 against 12 at this moment) believes that we are going too far with the changes.
There's a lot more to read from the poll. For example:
The majority likes RtR in general (19 against 8)
Of those who like RtR, 13 like PB46 or want to go further, against 6, who think this goes to far.
It sounds like there's continual interest about the size of one pitboss group to play bts/close-to-bts games, and one that wants to play RtR, and of the larger group that wants to play RtR, they want to keep going further (basically, rewording Charriu slightly).
I believe making a mod that would counteract the need for such a strict point system (from pb44/51) would be beneficial to any new players whom we are attracting as well as facilitating more varied picks. I think one person on my discord actually did not join because of the distaste for the way the point system was set up for pb51.
Details of such a mod spoilered to avoid Charriu's ire
There's a Bans section from that pitboss:
Bans:
AP resolutions, blockades, active espionage (espionage is enabled in settings but no spies can be built; no limits on Great Spies), nukes, War Elephants, city and unit gifting (including city transfer as a part of a peace treaty).
GLH, SoZ, Corporations.
So, just rebalance or remove what is banned. GLH to +1, Elephants to 7 strength, SOZ to something that is agreeable, blockades to what they are in 46.
Rebalance the starting techs to something more reasonable, but perhaps not as drastic as pb46. Perhaps introduce the path from poly to priesthood?
Nerf:
Inca, India, Rome
Rework:
America, Germany, Russia
Rebalance certain traits.
Make aggressive have the stables bonus as well as the small maintenance reduction from rtr.
Figure out a way to rebalance pro, perhaps the granary bonus and compensate by giving exp 35% on workers and a grocer bonus. This is difficult, to be honest.
Buff imp with the customs house bonus, a jails bonus, and a drydock bonus (late game misc buildings basically).
Give phi 150% bonus.
Change Fin to what it is in RtR, with a bank and market bonus.
Buff CHM to what it is in RtR minus library bonus.
CRE, SPI, ORG, IND can stay unchanged.
And that would be it.
I do not like SevenSpirits re-balance of traits. I have tried something similar in my mod with the group I play with (+1 hammers on 4 for a trait) and it was absolutely broken - however we usually play classical start, so this is less powerful in ancient era. Nonetheless, traits do not come by themselves and such a trait would be insanely unbalanced. +1 on 5 is justifiable.
Regarding the naval changes, I think ocean movement should be more expensive from a game point of view, at least for unit transports. The ability to quickly traverse the ocean creates too many problems for a defender. I think the problem of current RtR is that there's too many avenues of promotion, effectively circumventing and heavily exceeding any movement barriers. The problem isn't with the idea, it's with the fine-tuning of the movement points. The new promotion system I am ambivalent about, and it seems to be the source of certain of these problems.
"I know that Kilpatrick is a hell of a damned fool, but I want just that sort of man to command my cavalry on this expedition."
- William Tecumseh Sherman
(April 24th, 2020, 09:46)GeneralKilCavalry Wrote: It sounds like there's continual interest about the size of one pitboss group to play bts/close-to-bts games, and one that wants to play RtR, and of the larger group that wants to play RtR, they want to keep going further (basically, rewording Charriu slightly).
I believe making a mod that would counteract the need for such a strict point system (from pb44/51) would be beneficial to any new players whom we are attracting as well as facilitating more varied picks. I think one person on my discord actually did not join because of the distaste for the way the point system was set up for pb51.
Details of such a mod spoilered to avoid Charriu's ire
No ire here, as the discussion is more or less settled with Mardocs comment about Krill's profession. On the contrary I'm glad you brought this up.
Well, this is something I'm pondering about since new year and starting this discussion also had another more self-serving reason. I'm thinking about starting my own mod, which would be closer to BtS then RtR. It may not be a minimalist mod like Tides of War, but those changes I think about are closer to BtS. The goals I would set for this mod would be:
Address common bans
Balance stuff like India, Inca, War elephants etc.
Keep the changes recognizable for BtS players to make it easier for new players, lurkers and players who want to play closer to BtS
Try to buff things that are rarely used e.G. America, Germany, lumbermills, Serfdom among others
BUG integration
Most important for those who like to play RtR. Both mods will use the same DLL. Most changes are already modular and that way I can still support Krill. I'll start a discussion about my ideas as soon as I prepared the final-until-Krill-is-back version of RtR.
Looking back at the development of RtR and Tides of War this also may be something good for RtR, as some changes in RtR originated from ToW.
(April 24th, 2020, 09:46)GeneralKilCavalry Wrote: It sounds like there's continual interest about the size of one pitboss group to play bts/close-to-bts games, and one that wants to play RtR, and of the larger group that wants to play RtR, they want to keep going further (basically, rewording Charriu slightly).
I believe making a mod that would counteract the need for such a strict point system (from pb44/51) would be beneficial to any new players whom we are attracting as well as facilitating more varied picks. I think one person on my discord actually did not join because of the distaste for the way the point system was set up for pb51.
Details of such a mod spoilered to avoid Charriu's ire
No ire here, as the discussion is more or less settled with Mardocs comment about Krill's profession. On the contrary I'm glad you brought this up.
Well, this is something I'm pondering about since new year and starting this discussion also had another more self-serving reason. I'm thinking about starting my own mod, which would be closer to BtS then RtR. It may not be a minimalist mod like Tides of War, but those changes I think about are closer to BtS. The goals I would set for this mod would be:
Address common bans
Balance stuff like India, Inca, War elephants etc.
Keep the changes recognizable for BtS players to make it easier for new players, lurkers and players who want to play closer to BtS
Try to buff things that are rarely used e.G. America, Germany, lumbermills, Serfdom among others
BUG integration
Most important for those who like to play RtR. Both mods will use the same DLL. Most changes are already modular and that way I can still support Krill. I'll start a discussion about my ideas as soon as I prepared the final-until-Krill-is-back version of RtR.
Looking back at the development of RtR and Tides of War this also may be something good for RtR, as some changes in RtR originated from ToW.
Everything really depends on how far you want to go. I think its essential to really clearly delineate between KrillMod and a future CharriuMod in terms of philosophy, and make sure that a CharriuMod doesnt begin to spiral with more changes into an alternative KrillMod.
"I know that Kilpatrick is a hell of a damned fool, but I want just that sort of man to command my cavalry on this expedition."
- William Tecumseh Sherman
Honestly, RtR is almost a different game than base. I think it's more balanced (though restricted leaders in base is better balanced, as the worst traits tend to be on better civs), but I do think that Imp/Inca is a power combo.
For MP, RtR is better than base, if only to reduce the risk of someone losing a scout to a bear on turn 7, where someone else manages to get 10 xp for a warrior to open up HE early.
On the contrary I'm glad you brought this up. 