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chumchu · May 10th, 2020, 10:52

If you are afraid of enabling rushing by decreasing the time needed to get to to AH, a buff to palace commerce would run the same risk. Basically, as long as pastures are on AH, any speed up to getting pastures will also enable a faster chariot rush.

I think you are taking some things for granted regarding map construction/ early game that are not necessarily true.
- We do not see many successful chariot rushes in current games as they are vulnerable and have bad odds against archers in cities. Currently, the most commonly used unit to rush (or choke with) is axes. Unique units like bowmen, skirmishers, impis and war chariots also come into play. Just search for all Superdeaths pitboss games if you want see early game rushes from both sides =)
- If you need to settle to get horses but everyone has bronze in their starting city then it suddenly becomes very hard to chariot rush a player even if you decrease the cost of AH by 20 beakers.
- Another solution is for map makers not to give all players a plains hill start but instead just mandate them to settle in place on maps where moving a settler might screw with balance.

I am in favor of decreasing the cost of AH by 20 beakers as it is the best way to address the fact that agriculture resource starts are better than pasture start (and fish starts but that is addressed in other ways). The problem in unmodded BTS is that teching AH first puts you behind others on the way to crucial techs like bronze working and pottery. Making the tech cheaper is the best way to address this.

Charriu

You are right about chariot rushs being less common. But I think you missed one important factor with the palace commerce. My plan is not to increase the palace commerce in general. Rather I will only grant that extra commerce when you researched Mysticism. But first let's look at the different implication that happen with a reduced AH start:

It helps non-Agriculture/non-Hunting civs with a AH resource start, which is the reason for the change
It does help every single civ sooner or later
This also implies that it helps everybody with a chariot rush
It's a simple solution
It feels closer to BtS

In comparison this is what happens if Mysticism grants additional +2 commerce to the palace:

It helps non-Agriculture/non-Hunting civs with a AH resource start, even more then the reduction because you can also close the tech gap towards Bronze Working better
It does help every single civ sooner or later, but for non-Mysticism civs the effect is a lot smaller. This is because Mysticism now has a base cost of 60. Only researching Mysticism to gain those extra +2 commerce is for the most part not worth it for non-Mysticism civs, because the Return of Investment takes quite some time in the beginning. And when you research Mysticism later those +2 commerce have less of an impact on your overall economy.
Because of the last point Mysticism does not help everybody in a chariot rush, because you wouldn't tech it for the chariot rush. Only Mysticism civs get this help.
It buffs all Mysticism civs.
It's not so simple as just reducing tech costs
It feels farther away from BtS

Now it's also important to have a look at the actual civs that benefit most from this. There are 4, which already have Agriculture or Hunting:

Aztec (with Hunting): Right now they are better then average, while not being top tier. This buff will certainly help them with their UU, because they can get to Iron Working faster and while there are still forests to use for their UU. I'm fine with buffing them
Celts (with Hunting): Back in BtS their were in the lower midfield. Now with their UB no longer obsoleting they get a bit better, but the UB will get it's biggest use later with the introduction of gunpowder units. They definitly are worth a buff.
Holy Roman Empire (with Hunting): They had quite a fan-base in BtS. I would rate them as upper midfield similar to the Aztec. But their advantages first show in the medieval era. Getting them a bit faster there is probably fine.
Inca (with Agriculture): Now this is most likely the biggest problem with Mysticism buffed. But at the same I nerfed their UB pretty hard. I doubt that the Mysticism buff will bring them back to their top spot.

The rest of the Mysticism all belong to the non-Agriculture/non-Hunting/non-Fishing group with the exception of Spain:

Arabia (with The Wheel): The only thing this civ has going for it right now is their UB. They desperately need a buff and I'm happy to provide it with Mysticism.
Byzantium (with The Wheel): Like Arabia their starting techs sucked and their UB was annoying. The only thing they had going for them was the UU, which I nerfed because it was way to OP. A buff is definitely justified.
India (with Mining): Their UB comes way too late to matter and when it comes to starting techs, they at least had Mining. Of course the biggest power lied in their UU, which was the single reason despite their starting techs to take them. But just like Byzantium I nerfed them and pretty hard too. Still their UU has the ability to make up for a bad starting even with increased cost. It remains to be seen how much Mysticism will buff them.
Korea (with Mining): They are actually fine and I think the change to their UU will make people choose them more often. Mysticism will make this decision even easier. I think this will push them in the upper midfield of civs.
Maya (with Mining): Now this is one civ that will definitly profit most from the buff, because they can get their buffed UU earlier in place. It remains to be seen how good this will be.
Spain (with Fishing): They never really made it out of the worst civ group and I doubt even the +2XP to water units on their UB will help them that much, but together with Mysticism they can leave that group

Now back at my other post I mentioned that there are more civs that have a harder start with only AH resources. The remaining civs are:

Carthage (Fishing/Mining)
England (Fishing/Mining)
Japan (Fishing/The Wheel)
Portugal (Fishing/Mining)
Rome (Fishing/Mining)
Mali (The Wheel/Mining)

I think the Fishing/Mining civs will be fine for now as long as they have a water tile to work with, especially if they have more going for them like Carthage, Rome and hopefully Japan. I'm more concerned about England and Portugal. Mali might also be in trouble, but at least they have an amazing UU and their UB is also one of the better ones and they have Mining.

EDIT: Another nice side effect of the Mysticism buff is that it also buffs Bureaucracy.

Charriu

This is only the changelog compared to version 1.0. All differences between versions are in yellow. If you prefer a clean changelog just look at the second post of this thread.

Changelog version 1.1

Tile Yields and Improvements

Lumbermills: Available at Machinery, +1 commerce, +1 commerce with Electricity, Lumber mills now +1 commerce on the corner of rivers
Forest preserves: +1 commerce, now +1 commerce on the corner of rivers like above

Game Mechanics

Drafting: Rifles now cost 2 pop to draft. A city must now end a draft at size 6 instead of size 5 (So size 8 to draft a rifle, size 7 to draft a musket).
AP Resolutions: Declare War (on a non-member), Force Peace (between two members), Religious victory, and Assign City are no longer eligible resolution actions.
Fail-gold: You never get fail-gold if you also completed the wonder somewhere else (so no National Wonder fail-gold, or doubling up on a wonder to guarantee yourself a paycheck. The game still informs you that you received "0 gold" from your hammers).
Toroidal Maintenance: Now return city maintenance as if the map were Cylindrical.
Inflation: Inflation still occurs with increasing turn numbers, but in addition if (All techs you discovered / All available techs) * Maximum turn numbers is higher then the current turn, inflation takes the calculated turn from techs as a base for the calculation.
War Weariness: War weariness declines faster after the war ended
Religion spread: Spreading religions via missionaries to your own cities never fails
Global warming: Removed
Espionage: Active missions removed
Espionage: 'No espionage' option fixed, see bugfix section for more details

Techs

Agriculture: Cost 40 instead of 60
Mysticism: Cost 60 instead of 50
Hunting: Cost 50 instead of 40
Animal Husbandry: Cost 80 instead of 100
Metal Casting: Cost 300 instead of 450
Alphabet: Cost 250 instead of 300
Mysticism: Now adds +1 commerce to Palace
Astronomy: Add Paper as another prerequisite
Refrigeration: lose +1 sea movement

Buildings

Castle: Obsoletes at Corporation instead of Economics
Customs House: Cost 120 instead of 180, also applies to all UBs based on Customs House (Feitoria)

National Wonders

Red Cross: Cost 200 instead of 600
West Point: Cost 550 instead of 800, +5 XP instead of 4, Requires a level 5 unit instead of 6

Wonders

Resource modifiers: All wonders that had +100% production with a specific resource now only have +50% production with that resource.
Great Lighthouse: +1 trade route in coastal cities instead of +2
Statue of Zeus: Obsolete at Gunpowder

Unit mechanics

Flanking: Flanking strength (used to calculate damage from flanking strikes) of all units reduced by 50%.
Circumnavigation: +1 trade route in all coastal cities instead of +1 movement and can be achieved by everybody
Coastal blockade: only blocks trade routes, blockaded cities can still work blocked tiles.

Land units

Scout: +200% vs animals instead of +100%, no tech required, that way everybody starts with a scout, movement 1 (+1 gained with Hunting)
Swordsman: +20% city attack instead of +10%, also applies to UUs Jaguar Warrior and Gallic Swordsman
War elephant: Strength 7 instead of 8
Airship: Cannot see submarines
ICBM: Cost 1500 instead of 500
Tactical Nuke: Cost 750 instead of 250
Nukes: Nukes never create fallout on tiles containing strategic resources.

Naval units

Work Boat: no longer require any tech (still require Fishing to work water tiles).
Privateer: Required techs are Gunpowder and Astronomy instead of Chemistry and Astronomy
Submarine and Attack Submarine: Flanking vs Transports

Corporations

Tech: Discovering the corresponding tech for a corporation earns you an executive of that corporation. To settle the HQ you still need a great person.
Sid's Sushi Co.: Food bonus per resource 0.25 instead of 0.5 and culture bonus per resource 1 instead of 2, maintenance costs halfed
Mining Inc.: Hammer bonus per resource 0.75 instead of 1, maintenance costs 3/4 of original

Civics

Serfdom: +1 hammer on Farms and Watermills, +1 commerce on Windmills
Emancipation: lose unhappiness bonus, gain +10% Hammer in all cities
State Property: Lose +10% Hammer in all cities
Environmentalism: Available at Biology instead of Medicine, remove Corporation costs
Vassalage: Medium cost instead of High

Traits

Financial: +1 commerce on land tiles that have 3+ commerce, +1 commerce on water tiles that have 2+ commerce
Expansive: Remove Worker bonus, add +100% production of Aqueduct and Grocer
Creative: Reduce Library bonus from 100% to 35%
Charismatic: +100% production of Monument, +35% production of Library
Imperialistic: +100% production of Customs House and Stable
Aggressive: +25% production of worker
Protective: +75% trade route yield (like Harbors do)

Civs

UBs no longer obsolete at any time. Affected civs are Celts, Egypt, Ethiopia, Native America, Spain
America UB: NEW Immigration Station - Harbor replacement, +3 Great People Points, +1 happy from Hit Musical, Singles and Movies
America UU: NEW Minuteman - Musket replacement, Starts with Guerrilla 1 and Woodsman 1.
Babylon UB: Replace Granary; available at Agriculture; only +1 health
Byzantium UB: Replace Colosseum instead of Theatre, +1 happy from horse, +1 happy per 10 culture instead of 20
Byzantium UU: Strength 11 instead of 12, first strike immune like normal knight
France UB: +1 free specialist instead of +1 artist
Germany UB: Assembly Plant available at Steam Power instead of Assembly line, +2 hammer
Germany UU: NEW Riesengarde - replace Grenadier, available at Chemistry, starts with Pinch
Inca UB: +1 culture instead of +2, Cost 70 instead of 60
India UU: movement 2 instead of 3, start with Mobility promotion, Cost 70 instead of 60
Japan UB: NEW Tatara, Forge replacement - +2 XP to Melee, +10% hammer bonus with coals
Khmer UU: Stays at 8 strength instead of base units now 7 strength, requires Ivory or Iron
Korea UU: Targets melee first outside of cities
Maya UU: Starts with Woodsman 1
Native America Tech: Hunting/Agriculture instead of Fishing/Agriculture
Native America UB: Available at Archery instead of Mysticism, additional +1 XP for gunpowder units, never obsoletes
Rome UU: Strength 7 instead of 8, only +10% city attack compared to base unit, cost 40 just like base unit
Russia UB: Replace University instead of Laboratory, only +1 free scientist
Spain UB: Never obsoletes, +2 XP for naval units
Zulu UU: Remove Mobility promotion

Leaders

Also included are three new leaders for the missing trait combos ORG/PRO, CHM/CRE and IND/PRO

Events

New game options

BUG integration

Additional bug fixes

Added bugfixes from Unoffical Patch https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/u...19.324024/:

Charriu · May 14th, 2020, 16:06

I had some time to play around with the mod and so far I'm mostly satisfied. There are some things still bothering me, but first the changes

(May 14th, 2020, 15:52)Charriu Wrote:
Animal Husbandry: Cost 80 instead of 100

Mysticism: Now adds +1 commerce to Palace

This was discussed in some previous posts. As you can see I decided not to go for the cost reduction and instead buff all Mysticism civs for the reasons I provided in my previous posts. But in the end I decided only to go with +1 commerce instead of +2. This bonus will only have a major effect in the first 50-100 turns and even +1 commerce reduces the research time to Animal Husbandry by 2 turns on Standard map size, Monarch.

(May 14th, 2020, 15:52)Charriu Wrote:
Japan UB: NEW Tatara, Forge replacement - +2 XP to Melee, +10% hammer bonus with coals

I felt that the new UB only really has a limited use, albeit being a good one. With this I give it some additional use in the later stages of the game, when the Melee bonus does no longer matter.

Lastly here is a short list of things that I want to address in the future:

I want to add a mod section to CtH (and RtR) explaining the different balance changes to XML and DLL, so that any future developer has an easier time with it.
I'm mostly satisified with the civ changes, but there are two civs that still feel boring or too weak, those being Arabia and the Persian UB. I'm not sure what to do with Arabia to make it a bit better, but when it comes to Persia I have the idea of adding a healing effect to the UB like the Hospital, maybe "Heals units extra 5% damage/turn".
I'm not sure if the changes to Germany are enough, mostly because the UB still comes late.
If the new buildings and units are good, I will add custom art assets. Right now they still use their former UB and UU art assets.

Old Harry · May 18th, 2020, 08:34

This is all very interesting and I look forward to a test game.

I only found this thread because of your signature Charriu, so others who didn't check Civ general before the thread got moved here may not realise this discussion is going on. A note over there pointing to this thread would be handy.

It's possible I haven't read in enough detail, but did you discuss what happens on maps where some players start with Animal Husbandry food resources and others with Agri/Fish/Hunting food? Having to get an expensive tech to pasture pigs or sheep can slow a start down horribly. I thought RtR's solution of swapping pastures and camps with Hunting was pretty elegant.

I know you're trying to balance minimalism and balance, but we've got RtR for balance so I think of this as trying to be so minimalist that BTS players can pick it up without effort. However as Mjmd has pointed out there's still quite a lot of changelog to read, so if you get the urge to minimize further I think the ban lists from a few of the most recent BTS games might be instructive as a baseline of what the very minimum should be:

GeneralKilCavalry · May 18th, 2020, 09:13

"Korea UU: Targets melee first outside of cities"

Is this necessary? I have found the Hwacha to be satisfactory.

Mjmd · May 18th, 2020, 10:25

(May 18th, 2020, 09:13)GeneralKilCavalry Wrote: "Korea UU: Targets melee first outside of cities"

Is this necessary? I have found the Hwacha to be satisfactory.

There definitely isn't some poor green who chose base Korea in PB51...... Reasons are spoiler of course.

@Old Harry I agree its still a little long, but a lot of that is mechanics text which I couldn't really fault any of that (which is why I made random requests to reduce on the rest)

While I'm posting. I like the tech cost increase of mysticism. I don't like the commerce added with it. While you make a lot of valid arguments for helping the mysticism civs, it might be one of those things that it feels bad if you don't start with it, even if its totally fair and balanced. I'm a lover of value and I'm very green, so as both those things I would have trouble picking a non mysticism civ even if its still not correct by people who know what they are doing.

Charriu · May 18th, 2020, 16:09

(May 18th, 2020, 08:34)Old Harry Wrote: This is all very interesting and I look forward to a test game.

I only found this thread because of your signature Charriu, so others who didn't check Civ general before the thread got moved here may not realise this discussion is going on. A note over there pointing to this thread would be handy.

Thanks for pointing that out and good to know that some people look at signatures. smile

I was actually thinking about doing a test game pretty soon, but a note and possibly a survey like SevenSpirit did for ToW would be a better option for now.

(May 18th, 2020, 08:34)Old Harry Wrote: It's possible I haven't read in enough detail, but did you discuss what happens on maps where some players start with Animal Husbandry food resources and others with Agri/Fish/Hunting food? Having to get an expensive tech to pasture pigs or sheep can slow a start down horribly. I thought RtR's solution of swapping pastures and camps with Hunting was pretty elegant.

Yes I actually did discuss the Animal Husbandry food resources a few posts ago. You are right that the start is slower at least for non-Agriculture/non-Hunting civs. This is one reason why I put an additional +1 commerce for palace onto Mysticism. I agree that the RtR solution is good and elegant, but at the same time it changes the game a lot more. At least teching Animal Husbandry shows you some additional info for early dot mapping and you eventually will tech it any way in the first 75 turns. I'm still not totally happy with the Animal Husbandry situation.

(May 18th, 2020, 08:34)Old Harry Wrote: I know you're trying to balance minimalism and balance, but we've got RtR for balance so I think of this as trying to be so minimalist that BTS players can pick it up without effort. However as Mjmd has pointed out there's still quite a lot of changelog to read, so if you get the urge to minimize further I think the ban lists from a few of the most recent BTS games might be instructive as a baseline of what the very minimum should be:

PBEM 77 & 75:
Units at start: scout and settler
No: Statue of Zeus, war elephants, blockades, active espionage, nukes, Great Lighthouse, Apostolic Palace diplo victory, tribal villages, events, tech trading

PBEM 76:
Scout start for everyone
AI Diplo - no communication and no city gifting/trading
huts off/random events off/vassals off/ barbs off
Elephants - banned
no blockades
No nukes
No espionage missions. Spies/GSpy allowed to explore
No Fin leaders, Inca or India.

PBEM 72:
Barbarians: Off
Bans: default bans (War 'Phants, Espionage, etc) I assume this includes SoZ and Great Lighthouse. Please say so now if this is not amenable to you.
Starting Units: Standard
Picks: Restricted. Inca banned.

You are right about the intention of this mod, but I want to clarify again that this is not a minimalist mod. Rather it's a bit beyond minimalist, but not so radical as RtR. Thanks for the list of common bans. To summarize common bans/balance changes:

Scout as starting unit
No blockades
No active espionage
No nukes
No Statue of Zeus
No Great Lighthouse
No AP voting
No war elephants
No Financial
No Inca
No India
No Huts
No random events
No tech trading
No Vasalls
No corporations
No global warming

Note that I added some more bans at the end of the list in cursive. Looking at the single changes in version 1.1 I count 77 balancing changes. (I did not count all the changes in spoiler tags, because they are not relevant for every single game or are just minor bugfixes) Of those 77 20 address those common bans in some way or another. The other changes are mainly to make underused elements more appealing (22), balancing changes (26) or address common annoyances/exploits (9)

(May 18th, 2020, 09:13)GeneralKilCavalry Wrote: "Korea UU: Targets melee first outside of cities"

Is this necessary? I have found the Hwacha to be satisfactory.

I looked at this again. My initial thought was that the Hwacha melee bonus gets not enough use if you attack stacks of units, which is the main appliance of catapults. It's fairly easy to shield your melee units with units like Horse archers, Elephants, Knights, Crossbowman or Longbowman, so that your melee units are not the top defender. Now you might say that it's a common practice that units that have a bonus against certain unit types usual don't get the option to attack those units first in a stack and only can apply their bonus when there are less defenders, but the siege units this is a bit different. They are usually the first units you throw at the enemy stack. There's no point at destroying stronger defenders first, only so that the Hwacha can see its use against melee, while at the same time doing less collateral damage, because you already killed a significant part of the stack. All of this of course only applies if you are on the defense as this bonus does only work outside of a city, so this is a bonus that grants you better defense in the classical and medieval eras.
Now having said all of this I do believe that Korea would be fine without this change and this is certainly one change that could go first. Still I would like to give this change a try.

(May 18th, 2020, 10:25)Mjmd Wrote:
(May 18th, 2020, 09:13)GeneralKilCavalry Wrote: "Korea UU: Targets melee first outside of cities"

Is this necessary? I have found the Hwacha to be satisfactory.

There definitely isn't some poor green who chose base Korea in PB51...... Reasons are spoiler of course.

@Old Harry I agree its still a little long, but a lot of that is mechanics text which I couldn't really fault any of that (which is why I made random requests to reduce on the rest)

While I'm posting. I like the tech cost increase of mysticism. I don't like the commerce added with it. While you make a lot of valid arguments for helping the mysticism civs, it might be one of those things that it feels bad if you don't start with it, even if its totally fair and balanced. I'm a lover of value and I'm very green, so as both those things I would have trouble picking a non mysticism civ even if its still not correct by people who know what they are doing.

I think it is worth to compare this new Mysticism to the best starting tech combo in BtS that being Agriculture/Mining. I'm looking at a standard size map, normal speed, Monarch and no commerce tiles of any kind in the starting BFC. Tech path is a fairly common ->Bronze Working->The Wheel->Pottery. So how good/bad is Agriculture/Mining in comparison to Agriculture/Mysticism.
Well with Mining we get Bronze Working in 15 turns and we finish all of those techs after 34 turns. In comparison with Mysticism you get Bronze Working in 21 turns and all of those techs after 38 turns. I did not test any further after that, because at that point you commonly settled another city and a lot can change to due maintenance, additional commerce tiles and trade routes. It's true that we are missing the 60 base beakers from Mysticism with the Mining start as well as all which Mysticism gives. But with the exception of the commerce bonus you mostly don't need the other bonuses right away. After doing some test games I have to say that this +1 commerce has the biggest effect in the first 50 turns or even 75. With more players teching Mysticism and more commerce option from additional cities this bonus diminishs more and more.
Lastly I want to point out again that out of the 10 mysticism civs 4 were rarely used in BtS, while 3 civs received some harder nerfs.

Mjmd · May 18th, 2020, 20:40

As I admitted, it may be absolutely balanced or even not enough. I will continue to offer 0 input into balance. I was only offering perspective into how it might look to an untrained eye.

With both Covid going on and Civ survivor maybe rekindling some interest, it wouldn't be a horrible time for someone to put forth a new pitboss and see if there is interest. (not it)

Charriu · May 18th, 2020, 23:34

You make an absolute valid point and I've kept your feedback, for later evaluation. Thank you

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