[Spoilers] Lazteuq and RefSteel's PB51 Adventure

[RefSteel]

I really like this idea. Nobody else has calendar resources yet, I bet we could do it.
Carne Asada has the best continuous hammers and still 2 forests, while Tortilla has poor production but 4 forests. Both have grass hills which could be mined, that would help. I think Carne Asada would be better, and we would lose less commerce by doing it. Or maybe there is another city I'm not thinking of. I guess Salsa or Enchilada could do it but I don't see why.

It looks to me like Carne Asada actually only has one forest (the other one near it belongs to Enchilada) - and I think Tortilla has two third-ring forests (2E and 2S of the horses) that could help out too, and we could manipulate a Worker whip (and/or the Market, depending on how many hammers are in it right now) to generate a lot of overflow, so it's really a question of how many workers we'd be committing to the project. Tortilla would need a lot more worker turns to be competitive.

Huevos has been founded (site7). Granary of course. It is using Enchilada's cow, but I'm not sure if it should give the cow back and work the previously unused floodplain instead.

Unless Enchilada really wants the cow, the way you have it sounds fine to me: That floodplain needs a cottage before it becomes an exciting tile to work, and hammers (like those generated by the cow) are most valuable when building the granary.

Looks like Superdeath is just going to leave that galley lurking ominously. That's pretty smart because I have no way of knowing if there are troops in it. Worst case would be if he lands 2 praets on the forest 1E of Fajita.

I'm curious about what our army looks like. I can't tell if we're spread thin or focusing our strength elsewhere or what. If we could spare the units and worker for it, a couple of axes (even unpromoted) on that forest hill would ensure no praet landings there while we road it, but even that may be excessively paranoid. It's always frustrating to deal with superdeath because of stuff like this: It's very difficult to ever trust him, partly because he seems to send nothing but mixed signals.

Our workboat has moved past Plemo. Now travelling through El Grillo's coast, we met Ramk and accepted open borders.

Cool! I'm glad we're starting to reveal more of the map....

City Counts

Looking good so far, with still a few good cities to build. We'll see what the next few turns bring! One thing I may have missed: Is there a plan to build a galley in Ceviche, or are we ~ceding control of the "inner" sea for now since we only have one por there? Relatedly, in the "outer" sea, what's our existant galley doing? (I should note it is possible for us to move boats between the two seas with enough worker turns sunk into forts, but it would be a long voyage even once the canal was complete!

[Lazteuq]

T109: It's been quiet, no new diplo or surprises. Except for Plemo.
Plemo circumnavigated a few turns ago. That might actually be annoying, since we share a lot of coast. Also he's put a settler on the island north of our fur island! All those little islands are going to be near-impossible to defend...although 3move galleys will help.


Upon further consideration, I think Tortilla is the better site for MoM. All those forests are going down. I just don't feel the dedication to microplan the chops, sorry.
Good news is still none of our neighbors have calendar resources.
Spices will be connected in 3T. Incense will have to wait, because all workers are busy other places.

Superdeath's galley moved back south again. I decided to chop that forest hill instead, because I don't want to devote a couple units to holding the tile.
Graphs: We get intel on MJMD in 3 turns. 


Gira is probably not collapsing yet, because I haven't seen any drops in the culture graph. But there is a decrease in power. Now that we have a better road across the superdeath front, I think we could afford to position some troops near the border to attack Girapolis. I don't think they would be prepared for it. Prematurely building a road to the border might cause suspicion though. Right now, I think Gira is sending every unit to the other side except for one defensive archer, so I am confident we could take Girapolis with enough preparation. Maybe we could even push on to the capital and then clean up the leftovers? That gets risky because it would leave us vulnerable to superdeath. 


State Of The Military:
9 axes
3 spears
4 catapults
2 chariots



Tortilla just whipped a market with 16 overflow for MoM
Quesadilla can 4pop whip next turn.
Ceviche will 3pop whip a settler and then work on a galley to try settling the center Silk island. I do think we have a chance at grabbing it. If someone else does settle first, the settler certainly won't be wasted.

I'll post pictures of recent exploration next turn, I feel like we're about to reach the western edge of Plemo and find someone else. Will it be GKC and then Gira? Or is someone else in between, like Vanrober or MJMD or Ramk?

Confucianism was founded last turn, so we sure won't be first to Code Of Laws.

Thanks for the idea about fort canals, I never would have realized it. Something for when our workers are bored I guess.
Our galley on the outer sea is completely inactive, sitting next to Cerveza. I was going to send it back with the two workers after they chop on the island.

[Lazteuq]

T111:
Ramk got the Mausoleum, while we had barely started! Now we have Marble hooked up, but I don't know what to do with it.

Gira just got a Great General, and someone else did too at the same time, presumably GKC.
I feel like we need to go kill something to avoid stagnation, and maybe it's already almost too late.
I believe Gira is in a sufficiently weak position that we wouldn't even need to devote all of our forces. I'm not committing to attack yet, but certainly setting up for it. I've started shifting axes and cats eastward, trying to make sure Superdeath doesn't notice.
Attacking Girapolis from the Northwest will let us approach with maximum surprise. I'm roading that area now. Unfortunately, there will be a turn immediately before attack where our stack is visible.
We'll have to be careful to keep the northern flank covered. If Gira is aggressive with immortals, we need to keep a few spears on defense.

I don't feel like going after Plemo because we will lose any protracted naval war. We only have 3 cities to produce ships on the outer coast, while Plemo has something like 8? and the circumnavigation bonus. So while we might be able to take 2 or even 3 cities on turn 1 of a surprise war, it would probably harm us long-term.

Superdeath researched Alphabet. WHAT?!??!? Is he going for spies? Is this some complicated bulb-enabling plan? EDIT: Spies are banned in this game

This makes it look like he DOES have construction as well! Compass is the only other tech in the "Can Research" list if you scroll down.

Exploration:


We are tied for first in land area now. I'm glad the Great Lighthouse is banned, because Plemo would probably be running away with it otherwise.

[RefSteel]

Plemo circumnavigated a few turns ago. That might actually be annoying, since we share a lot of coast. Also he's put a settler on the island north of our fur island! All those little islands are going to be near-impossible to defend...although 3move galleys will help.

Also, they're not all little. I can't quite be sure, but it looks like Delft, Middelburg, and Kampen are on one long island. (If not, they're all on a peninsula that's barely connected to the mainland, which seems doubtful to me.)

Superdeath's galley moved back south again. I decided to chop that forest hill instead, because I don't want to devote a couple units to holding the tile.

Good plan. Definitely better than just letting it be an eternal liability!

Thanks for the update on the state of the military! If we're serious about attacking, we should concentrate on getting a lot of units out quickly: Even if what we already have is enough, we'll need more to ensure superdeath doesn't try to backstab us, to replace losses on the front, and to respond to unexpected contingencies. HBR is also a good military tech if we want to go all-in (for a stable or two, followed by Archery to actually build Horchers; Wellies, of course, are banned for this game). I'll talk a little more about research below.

Our galley on the outer sea is completely inactive, sitting next to Cerveza. I was going to send it back with the two workers after they chop on the island.

How soon will that be? It would be great if it could do something useful in the meantime (like further exploring those northern islands) if there are still a few turns before the workers are ready to come home.

Ramk got the Mausoleum, while we had barely started! Now we have Marble hooked up, but I don't know what to do with it.

So, this is really a question about tech. As mentioned, HBR -> Archery is the obvious immediate military tech path if we want to go that way. For basic economic power, Code of Laws will let us build (expensive) courthouses, adopt Caste during our GA (useful if, but only if, we want to run more than 2 [scientists OR merchants] in the same city) and open the way to Civil Service for Bureaucracy (hopefully completed before the end of the GA). If we could get to Monarchy for Hereditary Rule during the GA too, of course that would be even better. (Depending on how well we're teching and how much we need Caste, it might therefore be better to tech to CS before launching the GA, adopt Bureau as soon as it starts, and add HR near the end.

Something to do with the marble, if we want to, on the way to Monarchy: The Temple of Artemis (requires Poly, cheaper with Marble) generates 10GPP per turn (6 prophet points from the free priest, 4 merchant points from the wonder) since we're Philosophical, plus the hammer and gold from the priest, a couple of commerce from boosted trade routes, and a lot of culture. Alternatively, Poly is also a prereq for Literature, with Aesthetics. The Great Library would be very good for us (especially in Enchilada) if we could get it, and it requires marble too; we'll also want to build the National Epic at some point, also doubled with marble, and if we do go to war and manage to get and promote a 10-xp unit out of it somewhere, we can build the Heroic Epic too, which takes marble and is very valuable. We would definitely need a war to make that happen though. Parthenon also takes marble, for what it's worth. But do realize also that hooking Marble is a sunk cost. We shouldn't shape our strategy around the fact that we have it; just realize that it does make certain builds and paths more viable than they otherwise would have been.

I feel like we need to go kill something to avoid stagnation, and maybe it's already almost too late.
I believe Gira is in a sufficiently weak position that we wouldn't even need to devote all of our forces.

I said something about this above, but I want to emphasize it: We may well need to attack Gira to remain competitive, but if we do, we need to commit more forces than we have already: Even if we would be wisest to go in ASAP with only what we can muster, we absolutely will need more force to keep any gains we make, not to mention our own lands in case superdeath gets adventurous (or, as you point out, in case Gira does from another angle). It's a pretty good rule of thumb to just always build units when at war. And remember that if Gira sees us making war preparations (such as roading a threatening tile) that may start the whipping and reinforcing even before our stack is visible.

I don't feel like going after Plemo because we will lose any protracted naval war. We only have 3 cities to produce ships on the outer coast, while Plemo has something like 8? and the circumnavigation bonus. So while we might be able to take 2 or even 3 cities on turn 1 of a surprise war, it would probably harm us long-term.

Probably true. If we reach the point where we're competitive with Plemo, we can try to figure out how to gain an advantage there.

Superdeath researched Alphabet. WHAT?!??!? Is he going for spies? Is this some complicated bulb-enabling plan? EDIT: Spies are banned in this game

It doesn't have to be that complicated; Alphabet blocks most of the useful mid-game Great Scientist bulbs. But yes, it looks to me like the only tech we have on him right now is Calendar (at least, I don't think we've teched Archery) and his only techs on us are the three "Can't Trade" ones on the screen.

We are tied for first in land area now. I'm glad the Great Lighthouse is banned, because Plemo would probably be running away with it otherwise.

Don't look now ... but I'm pretty sure he's running away with the game as it is! (Although I suppose it's possible that El Grillo is competing with or impeding him more than I think.)

Good luck with the turns ahead!

[Lazteuq]

T112: My eyeglasses are broken so I have to zoom in super far to see what I'm writing. And there is a lot to write...

Confirmed that GKC is to Plemo's west, meaning Mjmd, Vanrober and Ramk must all be in the more southern areas.
Ramk owns a city named Madras, which I think means it was originally built by GKC of India. Ramk has declared war on GKC twice but they are at peace now.
Strangely enough, there are currently no wars between anyone we know!
I started putting EPs into GKC, we'll have demographics by T120 I think.

Gira and GKC have made peace. From PBspy, it looks like Gira took a size2 city from GKC and then razed it.

That's not good for our invasion prospects. I don't want to start cranking out units anymore. I'll continue building the road though.
We could wait until they are at war again to attack, but of course that assumes there will be a follow-up attack from GKC! If GKC has to worry about defending two fronts(Ramk and Gira), that makes Gira much safer. GKC might not attack Gira again unless we invade first. hmmm....When/If we invade Gira later, it may set off a chain of opportunistic wars. I don't think we should attack until at least after the 10turn Gira-GKC peace treaty expires.

Thanks for all the ideas involving tech and wonders. It really got me thinking

-Breakeven rate is 72bpt right now, I expect it to be around 90 in 10turns.
-I'm questioning whether we really need the happiness from Hereditary Rule. If we get that silk, we will have 6 luxuries, 2 of which are boosted by markets. Maybe I'm undervaluing Monarchy?

Here is a "Wonders, then Maces" idea (really not a plan, just a regurgitation of what RefSteel has said)
Mysticism->Polytheism so we can start working on the Temple of Artemis.
Aesthetics and start on Parthenon
Literature and start on Great Library in Enchilada, fully focusing chops on it.
Code of Laws and Civil Service while in a golden age.
Metal Casting->Machinery
Iron working should fit in somewhere.
Then, Macemen! Hopefully before Gira has loads of crossbows.

The "Straight to Maces" plan is exactly the same, except without Myst->Poly->Aesthetics->Literature.

I think the Myst->Poly->Aesthetics->Literature would cost us at least 12 turns delay in technology and delay the golden age. I'm really skeptical if it's worth it. I would feel bad to disregard those wonders, but like you said, the marble is a sunk cost. I do think Maces would be a decisive edge in a war of conquest against Gira or in defense against Superdeath. And 12 turns could definitely make all the difference, we might even be able to attack Gira before they get Machinery! Maybe that's too optimistic.

I know indecision is the worst decision, but this is really difficult. On one hand I want to make sure we take advantage of Philosophical and Marble, and I don't want to just ignore your ideas, RefSteel. But on the other hand, I have this idea that military tech is more important than anything.

Other:
I whipped a market in Carne Asada even though it doesn't have much commerce because I think the +2 happy alone from silk and fur are worth it.We should be able to settle the silk island in 4 turns(T116). 
I currently have no plans for new settlers or workers, except worker is about to finish in Chile.
Galley up north is going toward the islands north of Quesadilla.

Power Graph: Surprisingly few decreases.

[Suite]

I see you are building/chopping colosseums and markets. When do you intend to settle the spot on your north-western coast (two flood plains, fish, desert copper)? That is a strong city by itself which can help Carne with cottage growth. Plus you absolutely need more navy-building capacities, sooner or later. In your tech order I'd suggest Metal Casting earlier to build forges and yes, Monarchy isn't very useful here and you can delay it until Guilds.

[RefSteel]

My eyeglasses are broken so I have to zoom in super far to see what I'm writing. And there is a lot to write...

Oof - I'm sorry to hear that! I hope they're fixed/replaced soon!

We could wait until they are at war again to attack, but of course that assumes there will be a follow-up attack from GKC! If GKC has to worry about defending two fronts(Ramk and Gira), that makes Gira much safer. GKC might not attack Gira again unless we invade first. hmmm....When/If we invade Gira later, it may set off a chain of opportunistic wars. I don't think we should attack until at least after the 10turn Gira-GKC peace treaty expires.

It doesn't sound like GKC is in position to do much fighting. All that fighting probably does explain why Ramk, Gira, and (presumably?) GKC are so low on the scoreboard though.

Thanks for all the ideas involving tech and wonders. It really got me thinking

Glad to help!

-I'm questioning whether we really need the happiness from Hereditary Rule. If we get that silk, we will have 6 luxuries, 2 of which are boosted by markets. Maybe I'm undervaluing Monarchy?

Yeah, you're probably right that it's not worth the diversion from other priorities. My sense for what our cities need right now is very out of date, and shouldn't be relied upon!

On one hand I want to make sure we take advantage of Philosophical and Marble, and I don't want to just ignore your ideas, RefSteel. But on the other hand, I have this idea that military tech is more important than anything.

Wait, wait, please don't feel bad about ignoring any ideas I might post - especially when, as in this case, they come with caveats like "if we want to" and "for what it's worth" and as you noted, "do realize also that hooking Marble is a sunk cost. We shouldn't shape our strategy around the fact that we have it" - I actually think we shouldn't pursue any of these World Wonders if they're off our preferred tech path! Teching to Literature feels wrong to me when we don't even feel prepared for a war that could get us a Heroic unit.

Speaking of using Phi though: Are we anywhere close to getting a Great Merchant, by the way? If the plan is to tech CS during a golden age, and we can get a GM in that time, it might be worth teching Metal Casting and Alphabet instead and then bulbing CS with the GM. (On the other hand, we might get more out of a GM by using it for a trade mission - if we can be sure it'll be safe - and just teching at 100% for a while with the proceeds. And we might not get one soon in any case....)

I think the +2 happy alone from silk and fur are worth it.We should be able to settle the silk island in 4 turns(T116).

We get two already with Fur and Ivory, right? The Silk would just make it even stronger....

I currently have no plans for new settlers or workers, except worker is about to finish in Chile.
Galley up north is going toward the islands north of Quesadilla.

Suite already mentioned the desert hill city, and there are others worth planting too, including more ports (a filler on the mainland SW of the green copper, plus one or more on islands). Speaking of which:

I see you are building/chopping colosseums and markets.

Really? Do you just mean from the T109 screenshot, or am I missing something more current? (Note that if and where we no longer - or soon will not - have happiness issues, we don't need colosseums).

In your tech order I'd suggest Metal Casting earlier to build forges and yes, Monarchy isn't very useful here and you can delay it until Guilds.

Unless we're planning to bulb CS as noted above, I think getting to Bureaucracy is a higher priority than starting Forges, but the latter definitely have good value (less so with only one metal luxury and little need for happiness anyway though....)

[Lazteuq]

T114-115
I'm realizing that PHI heavily rewards planning ahead, probably more than any other trait. I haven't been planning enough to really take advantage of it.

Tech: I decided on a compromise: I ran Myst and Poly in 1turn each, so Carne Asada has now started on the Temple of Artemis. Should be done roughly T125 if nobody beats us to it. I chose Carne Asada because it had some overflow, otherwise Salsa might have been faster.
Beaker rate is a lot better than I thought: Break-even is 107! Code of Laws in 4 and Civil Service in 10 at breakeven. We have 300gold in the bank, so I think the golden age can start in 1 or 2 more turns. I'm being cautious about timing because I really don't want to mess it up and have the golden age end just before we get CS!

I wonder where to put Moai. Thinking of Salsa.

1AD Demos: Thats a lot of 3.

I think we're basically done with Markets and colosseums now, maybe Salsa and Ceviche will get markets later.

True, the desert copper city is pretty good, I think I'll wait for a city to reach happy cap before building the settler. Currently we're growing a lot and I don't want to whip or stagnate any growth.

We can't be guaranteed to get a merchant soon enough for the civil service bulb. We could contribute some merchant points in the pool, but it would most likely still produce a scientist.

Silk island will be founded next turn. I went for the safe location that allows tile sharing with Ceviche.

Now the galley has to go back to grab a worker and a military unit.

GKC declined open borders, so we can't explore any farther past Plemo.
I want to send a chariot on a boat to explore Plemo's land. Chile is working on a galley(4turns)

Gira got Christianity. That got me thinking about religion. During the golden age, we could adopt something, just for a little extra happiness.

Superdeath got Calendar, so now he is just plain up 2 techs on us: Alphabet and Iron Working. He hasn't increased power at all in the last few turns though.

Overall View:

[RefSteel]

I'm realizing that PHI heavily rewards planning ahead, probably more than any other trait. I haven't been planning enough to really take advantage of it.

Spiritual rewards forward planning even more, actually - and we definitely have taken advantage of PHI with our early Academy and just by still making progress on great people while still working a lot of land tiles. (And then there's Gandhi. Playing him at a high level is almost a whole different game.)

I ran Myst and Poly in 1turn each, so Carne Asada has now started on the Temple of Artemis.

If we're going to build that wonder, I'd be inclined to put it in a city that's more likely to run specialists too so the GPP will be more useful or more in need of strong culture. Carne Asada seems like more of a military city to me. (Of course, we can still switch if we want and count Carne Asada's start as building wealth with a big bonus but on a delay.) It's possible there's a reason I'm missing for putting it there, in which case, go to it! But wonders are expensive, and if we build one, wherever we build one, it should be for a definite reason.

We have 300gold in the bank, so I think the golden age can start in 1 or 2 more turns. I'm being cautious about timing because I really don't want to mess it up and have the golden age end just before we get CS!

Makes sense. I'd delay the golden age all the way until we actually have CoL if we're planning to run Caste, partly just so we cna grown our cities get more out of the tile bonuses (and/or additional GPP) from the GA.

I wonder where to put Moai. Thinking of Salsa.

Cerveza seems like a great long-term option, but given it doesn't even have a lighthouse yet, it's obviously finding production hard to come by. I think Chile Relleno might be my first choice, assuming it can borrow the cows from Carne Asada until Moai is done, and get its coastal grass hill mined. This assumes we're building ToA somewhere like Tortilla or Quesadilla though.

We can't be guaranteed to get a merchant soon enough for the civil service bulb. We could contribute some merchant points in the pool, but it would most likely still produce a scientist.

Not worth the die roll then. I might try to look ahead though and see what other interesting bulbs we can arrange.

Gira got Christianity. That got me thinking about religion. During the golden age, we could adopt something, just for a little extra happiness.

Definitely! Once we have CS in hand, it might even be worth delaying the revolt and teching Monotheism to get into OR too, if the delay is only a turn or two. The maintenance cost is high, but it'll help us build courthouses and forges (and enable us to build missionariess to spread our chosen faith around to cities with more infrastructure to build). Do we know who founded Judaism? It looks like our options are that (for one happiness in Enchilada) or El Grillo's Buddhism (for one each in Salsa and Quesadilla).

[Lazteuq]

T116
Founded Taco on the silk island. (I'm running out of Mexican food, so I used the reserve name)

I had chosen Carne Asada for the Temple of Artemis purely for speed. However, I now realize that extra chance of failgold is better than having the wonder but in a poor location, so I moved production to Quesadilla. I think we are less likely to actually get it, but being a high-food city with a market and coastal trade routes, it would be excellent if we do. There are 2 forests left to chop for it.
Does Organized Religion speed up wonders? If so, we could use it with Buddhism in the golden age.
We don't know who founded Judaism.

I like the idea of Moai in Cerveza.

Met Vanrober, accepted open borders. He has 8 cities despite being bottom of the scoreboard. Only has been involved in 1 war, which Ramk declared. Vanrober has met everyone except GKC, so he is probably south. Has a copper-copper and fish-fish trade with Superdeath.