Caster of Magic II Spell System overhaul discussion

[massone]

The problem with the Uncommon tier is that if the wizard doesn't get Prayer, they don't have any meaningful upgrades going from Uncommon to Common.

The free slot we get by moving Divine Order can help with that. We most definitely should put a unit buff there, question is what kind of buff?

My initial post had one idea, buffing hp because that's not available otherwise - but it might be too powerful, I'm not sure about it.

Another idea I had was a buff that scales with unit levels.

Discipline
40 mana
Enchanted unit gains +2 defense at regular, +2 attack at veteran, +1 ??? at elite level.

??? could be Negate First Strike, 1 hit point, or something entirely different.
This provides a nice in-realm combo with heroism, and doesn't escalate the hero buffing issue (Heroes don't have those unit levels, they use different level names, so the spell would not buff them at all. Likewise it wouldn't work on summons as they don't level up.) and can even provide the old functionality of Holy Armor (cast in combat for 8 to gain 2 defense) that is missing from the game.

My main worry is that this might end up being too powerful, if stacked on top of all the common buffs and Prayer. (although the cost is high and dispel magic is a thing to worry about at this tier so probably shouldn't worry about it.)

I think either the HP buff or this one could work, though I think this one's cost is a bit too high (for combat casting...if that 40 is overland that'd be low) considering it's single unit at Uncommon. It would mean that one would rarely get the chance to use it if Prayer is available, so it fills the gap when there is no Prayer, but that seems like a waste of a spell for a relatively uncommon situation.

I like the idea having something that scales with normal unit levels.

What about a sort of "Last Stand" spell that buffs a unit when it's already injured? Instead of a straight HP Buff, it could be something which increases HP slightly only once and adds level scaling buffs, but can't be cast if the unit has over 50% of its total base HP.

[Seravy]

(for combat casting...if that 40 is overland that'd be low)

It's overland. The buff requires the unit to have levels to function so that's basically a hidden additional cost (you have to either cast heroism first or build a barracks/war college or the unit needs to survive many battles)

basically, Heroism is roughly the same bonus (+2/+2/+1) for 70 but requires no levels and is common. This requires levels and it's uncommon so the same total bonus should cost less.

What I'm unsure about is what the elite level should add. I'm afraid hp would be too good (especially if the spell is available in combat) so maybe negate first strike or resistance? Movement would be far too good.

Buff stacking is a problem though, this is a +2 defense that does stack with heroism, endurance and holy armor as well as Prayer. So a halberdier would be 4+2+2+2 = 10 armor and 50% chance to defend. Far outclasses uncommon creatures while the cost is equal (40+60+75+40 = 215) although there is the added vulnerability to dispel.

The simple HP buff spell might be more balanced but less interesting.

Another idea : same effect, but "raises attack/defense bonus to +2 if below" instead. So it still stacks with Holy Armor/Weapon (those affect chances), Prayer (same), Heroism (levels add base stat not bonus stat), but not with Endurance or Flame Blade, or Holy Bonus/Leadership/etc. In this case we can probably safely have it add a +1 hp at elite as well but ONLY if not cast in combat. So this would be the full text :

Discipline
Unit enchantment
8/40 mana
If enchanted unit is regular or higher level, its defense bonus can't be lower than 2.
If enchanted unit is veteran or higher level, its attack bonus can't be lower than 2.
if enchanted unit is elite or higher level and the buff wasn't cast in combat, it gains +1 hp per figure.

AI friendliness might be a problem (the AI won't really know if the unit already has bonus or not because that changes over time) but not too much, the +1 hp is worth it regardless so as long as the AI only targets elite units outside combat, that should work.

Edit : the problem with this is, elite units are actually rare, unless they are units with heroism, so the spell isn't useful without stacking buffs. It might be better if it costed more, and gave hp regardless of level, and gave elite units something else? idk.

Discipline (b version)
Unit enchantment
12/60 mana
Enchanted unit gains +1 hp per figure if the spell wasn't cast during combat.
If enchanted unit is regular or higher level, its defense bonus can't be lower than 2.
If enchanted unit is veteran or higher level, its attack bonus can't be lower than 2.
If enchanted unit is elite or higher level, it gains Negate First Strike.

What about a sort of "Last Stand" spell that buffs a unit when it's already injured? Instead of a straight HP Buff, it could be something which increases HP slightly only once and adds level scaling buffs, but can't be cast if the unit has over 50% of its total base HP.

I vaguely remember that was considered when we were looking for a new chaos spell and the numbers didn't work well. Basically if the unit is already wounded then it will die faster and even with the buff on it's not going to be better than putting a different buff on a unit that's not wounded.

Also casting a spell like that is equivalent to raising a "shoot fire bolt here" flag.

[MrBiscuits]

I'm not a big fan of very complicated buffs.

Could the number of figures be boosted in some way? Maybe +1 figure (obviously wouldn't work on heroes).

[Seravy]

I'm not a big fan of very complicated buffs.

Could the number of figures be boosted in some way? Maybe +1 figure (obviously wouldn't work on heroes).

Probably but that most likely shouldn't be any less than very rare because it makes high figure units and races pointless. But as very rare it isn't that interesting.

[MrBiscuits]

I'm not a big fan of very complicated buffs.

Could the number of figures be boosted in some way? Maybe +1 figure (obviously wouldn't work on heroes).

Probably but that most likely shouldn't be any less than very rare because it makes high figure units and races pointless. But as very rare it isn't that interesting.

It could be +50% figures rounded up to work on high figure units as well maybe. 5 figure mammoths would interesting.

[MrBiscuits]

Also if you could cast it in battle, it would make it more interesting.
A full health figure for a stag beetle appearing might be enough to defend your city.
Thinking about it though, it feels a bit more like a sorcery spell as you are cloning or copying your figures.

Does anyone feel that darkness is underpowered? It's quite an expensive spell for its effect, 25 casting cost (or is it 20?), which is your entire combat skill in the early game and can cost up to 75 mana cast in battle away from your fortress. It just affects your death units, most of the better ones don't have many units. Zombies have lots of figures, but zombies + darkness is a lot of casting skill early in the game where these spells appear. Skeletons have a lot too, but are mostly just for city defence.

Compare that to Heavenly light, which has a one-off cost of 60, which actually provides mana long term rather than costs it, affects all your units, not just death and none of your enemy's units and also gives your units magical weapons. Also you don't need to use up casting skill in battle, it's already active from the start. 

Yes it's just a city spell, so only useful in defence, but it allows you to leave less powerful units to defend cities and attack your enemies more often with your better units. It's a much better spell overall.

[massone]

Does anyone feel that darkness is underpowered? It's quite an expensive spell for its effect, 25 casting cost (or is it 20?), which is your entire combat skill in the early game and can cost up to 75 mana cast in battle away from your fortress. It just affects your death units, most of the better ones don't have many units. Zombies have lots of figures, but zombies + darkness is a lot of casting skill early in the game where these spells appear. Skeletons have a lot too, but are mostly just for city defence.

Compare that to Heavenly light, which has a one-off cost of 60, which actually provides mana long term rather than costs it, affects all your units, not just death and none of your enemy's units and also gives your units magical weapons. Also you don't need to use up casting skill in battle, it's already active from the start. 

Yes it's just a city spell, so only useful in defence, but it allows you to leave less powerful units to defend cities and attack your enemies more often with your better units. It's a much better spell overall.

Darkness affects all undead too. Skeletons are good for city assaults...they have missile immunity and are dirt cheap. It's also a combat global, so it doesn't take up overland casting skill, doesn't require set up 3 turns in advance when you have less than 30 skill, and cannot be dispelled. By the time you have enough skill to instacast Heavenly Light, Darkness is much more useful as it can be used anywhere at will and whereas Heavenly Light provides very little benefit if you don't get attacked, and you can stack it with Black Prayer during assaults. With Zombie Mastery later, the benefit becomes huge as you can easily amass 9-stacks full of zombies and undead.

A better comparison would be to Blur which is also a common combat global. I use Darkness plenty, but I rarely ever use Blur just because other Sorcery spells typically have a bigger impact.

[ksasaki]

Does anyone feel that darkness is underpowered? It's quite an expensive spell for its effect, 25 casting cost (or is it 20?), which is your entire combat skill in the early game and can cost up to 75 mana cast in battle away from your fortress. It just affects your death units, most of the better ones don't have many units. Zombies have lots of figures, but zombies + darkness is a lot of casting skill early in the game where these spells appear. Skeletons have a lot too, but are mostly just for city defence.

Compare that to Heavenly light, which has a one-off cost of 60, which actually provides mana long term rather than costs it, affects all your units, not just death and none of your enemy's units and also gives your units magical wea
pons. Also you don't need to use up casting skill in battle, it's already active from the start. 

Yes it's just a city spell, so only useful in defence, but it allows you to leave less powerful units to defend cities and attack your enemies more often with your better units. It's a much better spell overall.

Darkness affects all undead too. Skeletons are good for city assaults...they have missile immunity and are dirt cheap. It's also a combat global, so it doesn't take up overland casting skill, doesn't require set up 3 turns in advance when you have less than 30 skill, and cannot be dispelled. By the time you have enough skill to instacast Heavenly Light, Darkness is much more useful as it can be used anywhere at will and whereas Heavenly Light provides very little benefit if you don't get attacked, and you can stack it with Black Prayer during assaults. With Zombie Mastery later, the benefit becomes huge as you can easily amass 9-stacks full of zombies and undead.

A better comparison would be to Blur which is also a common combat global. I use Darkness plenty, but I rarely ever use Blur just because other Sorcery spells typically have a bigger impact.

yeah I don't use darkness too much early, but I could totally see it coming into its own in the midgame.  I imagine zombie mastery + darkness + black prayer + a soul linker hero could see some pretty good undead creating zombies!  If I happen to find survival instinct too watch out 

[Seravy]

Maybe Darkness would be better if it had a cost of 20?
25 might be difficult to afford early.
The buff itself is better than Blur against most early units (1 defense will be typically more than 20% of the enemy attack power) but it only affects a limited type of units instead of everything.
I'm not sure but I think the spell started as cost 20 but was raised because it was too good in the earliest versions of the mod.

[MrBiscuits]

Normally in the early game other wizards have sprites or ghouls in their cities, so skeletons would not be able to harm the former and darkness would buff the latter. Hell Hounds would still beat them even with darkness, I guess they would do well against Nagas with their poison immunity (although still not sure they would actually beat them).

Sure you don't use any overland casting skill with darkness, but it uses up mana and all your combat skill early on. I would run out of mana very quickly casting darkness in every battle, especially away from the fortress, for what seems like a marginal benefit. It also means you can't use resist elements or anything else if the enemy has magic ranged or wall of fire. 

Maybe it is very useful and I'm missing the point, but it doesn't seem to have much synergy with death units where the more powerful ones have less figures so it is not so helpful.

I find Zombie Mastery just useful for slowing down enemy stacks and using up their resources. By then enemies often have Flame Strike, so even if you cast darkness first they will all be destroyed the next turn anyway. They almost always have ranged and flying units, so even with an enemy without flamestrike you can't ever reach the enemy with your zombies to actually do any damage. Also it creates the zombies in a stack of 3-4 on their own which get destroyed by the AI the next turn before you can stack them with any of your stronger units.  If you could move them after they are created then it would be a bit more useful I think.

The buff itself is better than Blur against most early units (1 defense will be typically more than 20% of the enemy attack power) but it only affects a limited type of units instead of everything.

Blur works on all your units and none of your enemy units. Most of your stacks will be made of death and non death units.
Is one extra defence on a single high armour unit as useful as on a multi figure low defence unit? I thought it wasn't.