A new mod enters the ring - Introducing "Close to Home"

[Charriu]

In the meantime you can disable all the scoreboard changes in the BUG menu. There's a tab labeled scoreboard

[Mr. Cairo]

In the meantime you can disable all the scoreboard changes in the BUG menu. There's a tab labeled scoreboard

But I can't change that icon unfortunately.

[Charriu]

Oh, mh I will investigate that. Thanks.

[Commodore]

War weariness: Is there any argument for it being retained as a mechanic for multiplayer? Would it be easy enough to have a toggle for it?

[Charriu]

Well I did plan to reduce the effect of WW, but there were quiet a few people opposed to it.

It should be not that big of a problem to include a new game option "No war weariness". But this would make some buildings rather uselesd.

[Charriu]

War Weariness: You no longer accumulate war weariness if you are winning battles.

This part is controversial I would say. The rest I agree with, but I believe a conqueror should not go without penalty, even when winning battles on foreign lands.

War Weariness: Skeptical. Afraid it might help the stronger player too much in a war against a weaker neighbor. It incentivizes taking land from weaker players rather than stronger players.

So to have any meaningful discussion about this I need to explain the actual implementation. These are the ways you accumulate war weariness:

• Your unit attacks their unit=+3 if you lose, +1 if you win
  
• Their unit attacks your unit =+2 (win or lose)
  
• You capture a unit=+1
  
• Your unit is captured=+2
  
• You capture a city=+6
  

All of the above values are multiplied by a the ratio of attacker and defender culture. That way fighting in your 100% culture never leads to increases of WW for you. The following values are not modified by this ratio.

• You launch a nuke=+12 (WW regardless of culture)
  
• You are hit with a Nuke=+3 (WW regardless of culture... this is for All players hit by the nuke)
  
• Each turn =-1
  
• Each turn at Peace= Current WW x 99% (rounded down)
  

The things I want to change are:

• Your unit attacks their unit=+3 if you lose, +0 if you win
  
• Their unit attacks your unit =+0 win or +2 lose
  
• You capture a unit=+0
  
• You capture a city with your culture being in the minority =+6
  
• Each turn at Peace= Current WW x 95% (rounded down)
  

If I understand you correctly, you are fine with the change to "Each turn at Peace" and I would guess you are also fine with the change to "capture a city", correct? This leaves only the other three changes. I think the "capture a unit" change is not as necessary as the other changes as this event happens not as often as the others. I think the reduction of "Your unit attacks their unit" is necessary and the most annoying and illogical. Not that this is only a change from +1 to +0 and you acquire the most WW by losing in enemy territory like for example by sacrificing your collateral in an attack. On the other end I can see a valid point to decrease the "Their unit attacks your unit" from +2 to +1, but honestly I would rather keep it at +0.

Overall the most important change is to increase the reduction during peace time.

This was my initial plan for war weariness.

[scooter]

I don't foresee that having a significant impact. It might be worse than nothing because to people like me that think it's a worthless mechanic in MP, this is chipping away at like 10% of the annoyance. For those who think it's an important mechanic, any reduction probably doesn't feel great. Drowning in just 4 angry faces instead of 6 in a war-heavy game doesn't really move the needle for me.


I think leaving it as-is and providing an opt-out option might be better.

[scooter]

[*]Each turn at Peace= Current WW x 99% (rounded down)

The things I want to change are:
[*]Each turn at Peace= Current WW x 95% (rounded down)

Thinking about it a bit more, and I wonder if this is probably the most important bit. What about 90%? I like to think of a few thresholds to make it practical, because it's hard to mentally visualize how this works in real numbers. I whipped this together in a spreadsheet in like 60 seconds, so if any of my numbers are off by a small amount, sorry.


How much war weariness remains after 10T of enforced peace?

* 99% retention: ~90% left
* 95% retention: ~60% left
* 90% retention: ~35% left


How many peace turns does it take for your war weariness to be halved?

* 99% retention: 68 turns (!!)
* 95% retention: 14 turns
* 90% retention: 7 turns


How many peace turns does it take for your war weariness to be 95% gone?

* 99% retention: ~300 turns (lol)
* 95% retention: ~60 turns
* 90% retention: ~30 turns


Those thresholds for 90% actually look pretty good to me and helps solve one of the things I hate the most - WW is too "sticky." I'd still rather have it gone completely of course, but a game option is probably the way to go there in the spirit of not drastically overhauling when not necessary.

[pindicator]

War Weariness: You no longer accumulate war weariness if you are winning battles.

This part is controversial I would say. The rest I agree with, but I believe a conqueror should not go without penalty, even when winning battles on foreign lands.

War Weariness: Skeptical. Afraid it might help the stronger player too much in a war against a weaker neighbor. It incentivizes taking land from weaker players rather than stronger players.

So to have any meaningful discussion about this I need to explain the actual implementation. These are the ways you accumulate war weariness:

• Your unit attacks their unit=+3 if you lose, +1 if you win
  
• Their unit attacks your unit =+2 (win or lose)
  
• You capture a unit=+1
  
• Your unit is captured=+2
  
• You capture a city=+6
  

All of the above values are multiplied by a the ratio of attacker and defender culture. That way fighting in your 100% culture never leads to increases of WW for you. The following values are not modified by this ratio.

• You launch a nuke=+12 (WW regardless of culture)
  
• You are hit with a Nuke=+3 (WW regardless of culture... this is for All players hit by the nuke)
  
• Each turn =-1
  
• Each turn at Peace= Current WW x 99% (rounded down)
  

The things I want to change are:

• Your unit attacks their unit=+3 if you lose, +0 if you win
  
• Their unit attacks your unit =+0 win or +2 lose
  
• You capture a unit=+0
  
• You capture a city with your culture being in the minority =+6
  
• Each turn at Peace= Current WW x 95% (rounded down)
  

If I understand you correctly, you are fine with the change to "Each turn at Peace" and I would guess you are also fine with the change to "capture a city", correct? This leaves only the other three changes. I think the "capture a unit" change is not as necessary as the other changes as this event happens not as often as the others. I think the reduction of "Your unit attacks their unit" is necessary and the most annoying and illogical. Not that this is only a change from +1 to +0 and you acquire the most WW by losing in enemy territory like for example by sacrificing your collateral in an attack. On the other end I can see a valid point to decrease the "Their unit attacks your unit" from +2 to +1, but honestly I would rather keep it at +0.

Overall the most important change is to increase the reduction during peace time.

This was my initial plan for war weariness.

My concern is the player doesn't have any agency for most of the game in being able to reduce war weariness. If the other player won't take peace then what are you able to do? Or perhaps you're in a situation where you can't take peace because of metagame reasons, but the war weariness is just going to be a slow death instead. For whatever meta reasons we're seeing more games where players are in war longer and war weariness is rearing its ugly head.

One idea for a solution would be to add in a reduction to war weariness even when at war, and then make it greater at peace. (Assuming we don't eliminate the mechanic altogether.) This way if you need to be at war but aren't actually actively accruing war weariness there's still a light at the end of the tunnel and you can fight defensively knowing that your war weariness will eventually decrease. Perhaps something like:

• Each turn at War= Current WW x 99% (rounded down)
  
• Each turn at Peace= Current WW x 95% (rounded down)

EDIT: Scooter has great insight into the actual numbers for reduction in the prev post.

Alternatively, or perhaps in addition to the above, I'd propose moving half of Police State's 50% reduction to the Courthouse, so we have 25% reduction at Courthouse and 25% reduction at Police State. Perhaps details here are all wrong - I haven't thought it out much - and it should go to like the Monument or we should tweak the war weariness reduction numbers on buildings which give it.

Third idea - Make Statue of Zeus not a troll wonder, but instead have it give a huge war weariness reduction for the player who builds it.


The bigger idea is that right now you have to go half the game or build Pyramids before you have any agency in how war weariness effects your empire. We either need to eliminate it or give the player more decision making with regards to this mechanic.

[Charriu]

All good points that I will think over. If I remember correctly I set the peace time reduction to 90 just as scooter proposed. It's the same in RtR since a long time, but it wasn't mentioned in the changelog.