[SPOILERS] scooter's PB53

[scooter]

As much as I hate losing my first 90% barb battle every game, I think removing them entirely would just let the farmer gambit play go a little too far.  At least that's what I remember from the yesteryear MP games.

You're definitely right that that's the outcome. I just don't think it's worth it to prevent farmer's gambits. If barbarian combat was deterministic, I'd agree they're important to have on. I don't think the all-farmers-gambit side effect is worse than the heavy early-game RNG, but I definitely recognize that's going to be a taste thing.

[Zed-F]

You could potentially make barb units more plentiful but lower power to reduce the impact of RNG by spreading it out more. Or maybe just the earliest barb units. Or you could give certain player units bonuses against certain barb units.

I don't think it's wrong to have barbs be a military tax on players who expand aggressively without considering how to defend their empire, even in the absence of other nearby players. But where is RNG the biggest problem with respect to barbs?

[scooter]

You could potentially make barb units more plentiful but lower power to reduce the impact of RNG by spreading it out more. Or maybe just the earliest barb units. Or you could give certain player units bonuses against certain barb units.

I don't think it's wrong to have barbs be a military tax on players who expand aggressively without considering how to defend their empire, even in the absence of other nearby players. But where is RNG the biggest problem with respect to barbs?

The suggestions are definitely interesting. The bolded part is pretty simple though. Imagine that warrior defending right there had been my settler escort. I'm escorting my settler, sticking to defensive terrain, and I find myself exposed to a shot where I've got a 4% chance of losing my warrior and settler. I'm probably fine, but if this is that 1-in-25 chance, my game is just over. Now I have to spend months slogging through a game where I lost on a 4% dice roll in the first 30 turns. In single-player this is fine because I can just reload or start a new game, but I don't have that option here. I think it's by far the worst RNG in terms of impact in the entire game.


You could counter this by saying I ought to have 2 units escorting. Maybe! But when your odds are 96%, a lot of players will choose just one escort, which means you're losing out to those players. Barbarians force you to take some individual dice rolls that are among the most impactful you'll have all game. If I lose at 96% when invading another player 150 turns later, well who cares, by this point one unit is not a big deal. In the first 50 turns, a unit can represent a huge chunk of your total output thus far. Think of that hammer loss as a percentage of all you've accumulated so far.

[Charriu]

Well if it's only the early part that is the RNG problem, then there are quite a few things that I can do about that.

• Add more free wins against barbs on higher difficulties
  
• Maybe seperate those free wins between animals and human barbs
  
• Make it so that a settler escorting unit always wins during those early turns. Of course only when defending.
  

[scooter]

Well if it's only the early part that is the RNG problem, then there are quite a few things that I can do about that.

• Add more free wins against barbs on higher difficulties
  
• Maybe seperate those free wins between animals and human barbs
  
• Make it so that a settler escorting unit always wins during those early turns. Of course only when defending.
  

This is maybe the right track to go on. These options would all force you to still build units (naked settler can't "win" even if it's free), but they keep you from having a game-ending RNG moment when you mostly did things the right way. Further discussion might be better placed in the mod thread so that it has more visibility, but I don't mind things quoted from here that don't comment on this game directly.

[sunrise089]

I think you're maybe overstating the danger of barbs early. If you're not scouting with warriors then the risk is super small due to predictable barb behavior, defensive bonuses, and delays on barbs entering culture. The danger comes from sending your warriors out which to me seems good design - you have meaningful alternatives to scout with scouts or not scout at all early and play it safe.

I also think you're maybe underestimating how much a monarchy or (base BtS) metal casting hut pop would swing things. Hammers are of course more impactful than beakers, but a warrior vs metal casting is like 15h vs 800b right?!

Finally, with respect to single warrior escorting settler and moving blindly, that's why the game has a combat log IMHO. Its completely transparent in that scenario to the player that they're gambling their empire on that 4% downside risk. If I bet my house spread across 35 numbers on roulette and the 36th number comes up I don't see that as a design problem but rather a risk tolerance problem.

[superdeath]

Im honestly thinking we need the next PB to be Raging barbs.

[scooter]

Turns 17-19


We continue the blistering pace. I believe this is the fastest moving game in RB history. PB52 has been really fast, and it only managed 20 turns in its first week. We'll hit that number by tomorrow morning, and we still have 3 full days to go before a week is elapsed. 30T in a week is looking very achievable. Anyone know of a game that beats that? We haven't played many 6 players or less simultaneous games, so this probably takes the crown.





I won another 96% fight, but more importantly, hello AutomatedTeller. I ranked him as my 3rd preferred neighbor. I don't think he's a particularly aggressive/scary player which makes him a good neighbor, but he does have a moderately scary choice in Stalin of Japan that makes him a less desirable neighbor. Overall, I avoided starting next to both TBS and Commodore, so this is good neighbor luck. We may have a nice soft border too because the land between us is kind of bad? I mean, it's not horrible, but by the standards of this map it kind of is. The pigs/stone here is obviously great, but I have a feeling he'll get that since I'm settling stuff elsewhere currently. It all depends on how good the south ends up being. He has three cities, with his third settled just a turn ago, shortly after Cornflakes. Those are the only two to plant a city, but they also were the only two to start with, well, two. Cario settled a city way back on T7, but he hasn't settled a third yet.






I'm settling my fourth next turn (T20), and my fifth around T24. Shanghai chop/whipped the settler to completion with 40h of overflow that went into what will be my fourth worker. I picked up Pottery, so granaries everywhere will be next. The development plan for red dot is to farm the rice and start a granary. The forest next to the rice is pre-roaded, so 1) the city will get its trade routes right away, and 2) I can quickly chop it into the granary after farming the rice without burning worker turns moving onto it. My wounded warrior made it back, and he'll move down and heal in the new city, while the southern warrior is going to finally scout out the south. He'll be in full exploration mode as my eastern warrior will be forced to return and heal, so I should have enough at home to fend off the possibly incoming horde on T25. The good news is there are very few fogged land tiles between myself and Cornflakes, so the odds of serious assaults incoming is pretty low. I'll have a few options in case of emergency, including that red dot chop. I've held off on roading my copper because the cheap warriors are useful right now.


I got Cornflakes demos, so here's a chart dump in spoilers followed by some random thoughts.

* GNP is noticeably lower. The gap between FIN + PRO to neither is pretty noteworthy. He bought a tech IIRC, and this is why he probably had to.


* Generally, I've been ahead on food, and he's been ahead on production. Given how much time we've been building workers and settlers, this is probably a wash.


* He probably has 2 warriors and a scout just by eye-balling it. Nothing scary incoming, that's for sure.


PRO: 3, 3, 3 (57)
FIN: 2, 2, 2 (32)


I've gotten an early tech's worth of value out of these in the first 20T alone. Seems good.

[Thoth]

Im honestly thinking we need the next PB to be Raging barbs.

We tried that in FFH XVIII.  Lots of fun, but I don't think I'd want to do it in base.

http://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/forum...php?fid=85

[scooter]

Turn 20






Further confirmation that AT just settled this city. I'm pretty tempted to DoW next turn and see whether he bothered to defend this or not. Problem is that my warrior is wounded, so if I do that, he might just be able to kill it. I'll think about it. Double move would be a bit weird though. I started my turn and moved this unit first, but when I was in the middle of my turn, he logged in and played his turn before I completed mine. Not going to worry about it.





Nanjing settled this turn, and as planned it already has its trade route. I really ought to come up with a naming theme, huh.






Demos look shiny what with the new city and all. GNP is break-even, whoo. I thought I was going to be first to 4 cities, but TBS beat me by a couple hours, though both happened on the same turn. Overall the field is packed pretty tightly together so far.


PRO: 4 (61)
FIN: 2 (34)

First increase in awhile