Caster of Magic II Spell System overhaul discussion

[Seravy]

I'm not sure why I would ever want to cast a spell that moves everything randomly. It's not reliable for stalling and if I need to reach the enemy then I can cast Mystic Surge if necessary or walk there without casting anything if not.

One more idea for the Life spell :

Add the new spell (+2 defense at level 2, +2 attack at level 3, +something at level 4) as a common, and move Endurance up to uncommon. Endurance keeps the existing effect of +1 move but instead of the +2 defense, it adds + hit points. (+1 per figure or +4 total whichever is more)

Pros
-Unit levels are not so trivial to get at common tier so the mechanic has more relevance.
-We get a common spell that has the old functionality of Holy Armor (+2 defense in combat) in the most common case of having only a barracks.
-No problem of +2 defense stacking on top of existing buffs because the same +2 defense is removed from endurance
-The combo potential of Endurace (5 move summons can strike on turn 1) is moved up a tier so it's not as trivial as 1 Life books to unlock, you need at least 2. (This only matters for Death Knights I think, as Angels are in the same realm)
-In general, buffing summone creature defense becomes less accessible - at least uncmmon necessary
-Less overlap between Endurance and Land Linking, both buffing defense by +2 on summons, further reducing buff stacking on summons in the early game while hit points are still useful
-Extra hp is more newbie friendly on heroes while less powerful than +2 defense.

Cons
-Life loses its ability to move their units at +1 speed at common....UNLESS we make +1 move the level 4 effect of the new spell. An instant +2/+2/+1 move might be a bit too good but we can restrict the move to only apply if cast outside combat. However that still means stacking the new buff and endurances is +2 total moves overall which might be better than intended. This might be a pro though as the main problem Life has is no matter how well buffed your unit is, if it cannot reach the enemy then it'll be destroyed by spells or at range anyway.

[htester]

Let's see...Currently level up values are as it follows:
For normal units :
Regular : + 1 melee, +1 ranged, +1 resist total.
Veteran : + 2 melee, +2 ranged, +1 Thrown/Breath, +1 defense, +1 resist total.
Elite : + 2 melee, +2 ranged, +2 defense, +2 resist, +1 health total.
Ultra Elite : + 3 melee, +3 ranged, +3 defense, +2 resist, +1 health total.
Champion : + 3 melee, +3 ranged, +3 defense, +2 resist, +2 health, +1 hit total.

If by the new life common is added (+2 defense at level 2, +2 attack at level 3, +something at level 4) if by lv 2 you mean "veteran" does something happen if you cast on a newly produced unit without barracks (at regular lv)? If not you need to cast heroism on it or at least have warlord retort. I do agre that life buffs don't help that much on the beginning as poison basically counters them. The spell kinda look like a Global to me as it virtually doesn't do anything at the very beginning of the game (and start to be relevant as the game progresses). I am fine with losing movement (although it could be bad for life Gnolls). I would like to see defense/ life boths balanced in such a way so that Wolf Riders could take at least a ghoul garrison if they had defense buffs at comon tier stacked with the life buff at uncommon tier.

[Seravy]

If by the new life common is added (+2 defense at level 2, +2 attack at level 3, +something at level 4) if by lv 2 you mean "veteran" does something happen if you cast on a newly produced unit without barracks (at regular lv)?

No, I mean level 2 = Regular. Level 1 = starting level with 0 experience.

[htester]

If by the new life common is added (+2 defense at level 2, +2 attack at level 3, +something at level 4) if by lv 2 you mean "veteran" does something happen if you cast on a newly produced unit without barracks (at regular lv)?

No, I mean level 2 = Regular. Level 1 = starting level with 0 experience.

Ops .  Anyway that doesn't change the point that at starting lv a unit won't receive anything if the buff was can on it, right? (also forget about the gnolls coment. I was in a rush and doing something else. Def isn't supposed to counter poison anyway (+ resistance is)

[Seravy]

Anyway that doesn't change the point that at starting lv a unit won't receive anything if the buff was can on it, right?

Exactly.
(we can change that though by splitting up the +2 defense to be 1 for level 1, another 1 for level 2.)

Edit : How about this version?

Discipline
Life common
Cost 8/40 MP, Upkeep 1
Target : Base type Normal unit only.
Enchanted unit gains +1 defense.
If enchanted unit is at least Regular, it gains another +1 defense.
If enchanted unit is at least Veteran, it gains +1 attack.
If enchanted unit is at least Elite and this enchantment wasn't cast it in combat, it gains +1 movement.

Endurance
Life Uncommon
Cost 60 MP, upkeep 2
Enchanted unit gains +1 movement.
Enchanted unit gains +4 hit points divided evenly between all figures, rounded down, but a minimum of 1 per figure.

[htester]

I finally got the meaning of the suggestion you basically don't want to mix the two effects on the same spell
"a buff that scales with experience" and "a buff that raises hit points". I think that as common the design of discipline is very good but it makes me wonder if I would ever cast Holy Armor on the beginning of the game( (I would rather cast Discipline even though it has upkeep). Endurance is prob ok but I still not sure about movement effect (wetter it should exist on common or uncommon tier). Can holy armor change to something else or is that just a bad idea?

[Seravy]

I think Holy Armor is fine but maybe Discipline is underpriced although...

Level 1 : Holy Armor is +2 defense or better, Disciple is +1 defense.
Level 2 : Holy Armor is +2 defense or better, Disciple is +2 defense.
Level 3 : Holy Armor is +2 defense or better, Disciple is +2 defense and +1 attack.

So basically if the unit is level 1 or 2 then Holy Armor is always better (same or higher buff, less maintenance), only at level 3 does it start shifting towards Discipline becoming better but... at level 3 which assumes War College or Warlord, units will generally have higher defense stats already. For each point of defense the unit has above 6, Holy Armor is pretty much worth an extra 1/3 defense over what Discipline grants.

Holy Armor has another advantage too. You cannot cast it in combat. So if you buffed your unit with Discipline, you can't do anything to further improve it in battle. If you used Holy Armor, you can still cast Discipline in combat to have both.

So overall, casting Holy Armor will be better in most cases, exceptions being if you already have Heroism on the unit (but then you want both buffs anyway), or built a War College and your race doesn't have above normal defense stats.

[htester]

Looking at the values both spells are ok. Movement is also covered by discipline (if you cast along wih heroism). So I am kinda satisfied.

[Seravy]

Terror : this too could be tweaked to offer a different to hit reduction than 10%, if necessary.
Cloud of Shadow : This can go down to uncommon if we decide to not add a new spell there. In that case it probably should lose the "Terror" effect and only keep the other three.

[massone]

Anyway that doesn't change the point that at starting lv a unit won't receive anything if the buff was can on it, right?

Exactly.
(we can change that though by splitting up the +2 defense to be 1 for level 1, another 1 for level 2.)

Edit : How about this version?

Discipline
Life common
Cost 8/40 MP, Upkeep 1
Target : Base type Normal unit only.
Enchanted unit gains +1 defense.
If enchanted unit is at least Regular, it gains another +1 defense.
If enchanted unit is at least Veteran, it gains +1 attack.
If enchanted unit is at least Elite and this enchantment wasn't cast it in combat, it gains +1 movement.

Endurance
Life Uncommon
Cost 60 MP, upkeep 2
Enchanted unit gains +1 movement.
Enchanted unit gains +4 hit points divided evenly between all figures, rounded down, but a minimum of 1 per figure.

I think the new bonuses from Discipline are good, but I'm entirely sure about the new Endurance. It's true that it's a great spell, and shouldn't be so easily accessible to other realms, but this new uncommon version is clearly worse than the original despite going up a tier for Life itself, because as you noted, +2 def is better than +4 HP, especially on multifigure units where it gets split and becomes just +1 per figure. I'd only ever consider +1HP better on units with 1 HP, which would be practically never because Elite gives them minimum 2 HP per figure and I'd prefer +Def again. The total bonuses are also weaker than Discipline at Elite, despite costing more in Upkeep.

Then again, I suppose I would still cast it if I had both, just to stack the movement bonus, which is quite useful.

The thing about the new buffing spell is that it's basically a

"let's buff every normal unit I have with every spell I have for free"

effect, except that would be obviously too powerful so it happens over time, slowly. Leave it unchecked and in 4-5 years those harmless units turn to scary armies.
Normal units are about strength in numbers, so it doesn't really matter which buffs they get, as long as it does make your garrison and two dozen other stacks of normal units each slightly stronger.
"random" isn't really a necessity in the spell, it just is easier than trying to define an order that doesn't cause balance issues by giving good, or bad buffs first.

Not limiting it to Life buffs adds combo potential - 500 halberdiers are no big deal, but 500 halberiers that fly, are immune to magic and have iron skin, well...


I agree that "random" doesn't match life though, and also this is way too similar to Doom Mastery and might be simply too good even for a very rare.

...one more fundamental flaw in this idea is the maintenance cost. If the enchantment is dispelled, the unit buffs suddenly cost thousands of mana to keep and that might be a problem while recasting a global, especially for the AI.

Instead of giving random buffs from the existing selection, how about another spell in the same vein as Discipline, which scales with level, but further extends it to Ultra Elite and Champion too? So it would have synergy with Crusade and Altar of Battle. And instead of simply adding stats to individual units, what if it was a group effect? The more experienced troops there are in a single battle, the bigger the bonus to all of them.

For example, suppose we summed up all of the levels of all the units in a battle, and they go from 1 to 6 for normal units, so that's minimum 1 (for 1 unit), and maximum 54 for 9 units at Champion, then we defined some bonuses for reaching various thresholds. This can encourage both using large armies of weaker normal units, and having high level units. This could then make a team of highly buffed normal units competitive with Very Rare summons.

For example:
Battle Meditation
Life Very Rare
Cost: 1000 MP
Global Enchantment
All units with the Disciplined status gain +1 to Hit at Ultra Elite and +1 to Defend at Champion. In every battle, all of the caster's units gain varying bonuses according to the sum level of all units participating on their side.
+1 Attack for 9 levels,
+2 Resistance for 18 levels,
+1 Defense for 27 levels,
+1 HP per figure for 36 levels
All Units Gain Negate First Strike for 45 levels
All Units Gain First Strike for 54 levels