Caster of Magic II Spell System overhaul discussion

[Seravy]

That's overcomplicated but the idea is good.

We have neither of these yet in the game and both would suit Life magic well :
-A spell that buffs a unit (or all units) based on the total levels in the army
-A spell that buffs a unit (or all units) based on the total number of normal units in the army.

The problem I see with this is that if it affects all units, it's basically uncounterable (there is no weak point to strike at, everyone is buffed.), but if it's single target then it needs to be artificially restricted to not work when more than one unit is buffed by the effect, or we are back to the same problem.
The only way to get around that problem I see is if it's a summoned creature that has this ability. As creatures aren't normal units, the ability wouldn't be able to get powered up by the creature so more than one in the stack makes it less effective. It does sound like a suitable ability for a "Prophet" creature and it would even be a good combo with the other planned ability (turning enemy normal units to your side). I'm more worried about that other ability but maybe we can do something with this idea this way :

Prophet
Life Very Rare summoning
1 figure, 10 melee, 18 magical ranged, 20 hit points, 10 resistance, 12 ammo, 8 defense.
Converting Touch : Whenever this unit attacks a normal unit, that unit must resist at -3 or gain "Believer" status.
Faith : Prophet gains +3% chance to hit and 2% chance to defend for each normal unit in battle that is under your control, or has "Believer" status.

This way no units change controllers - which might be too powerful most likely - but failing the resistance rolls feeds into the strength of the Prophet unit(s), making them very hard to stop.

...Except there is one more fundamental problem. The AI. It won't be able to split their stacks into "1 prophet, 8 normal units" groups. So while the idea is good, I think we should give up on it for AI reasons.

[Cruel100]

Let's try to summarize the current state so we can make progress!

DECIDED (not yet implemented)
A. New Nature Very rare : Each turn, X land tiles at random are converted into Forests. Gain +0.5 power for each Forest tile on the map.

It reminds me of the MOD for civ4 "Fall from Heaven II" one of the best mods I have ever played. Good times.

There was exactly the same magic, that in addition to power, for each enemy unit in your territory had a chance to appear an Ent to fight for you.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources...aven-ii.1/

[Cruel100]

"3. Blizzard - Overland unit destruction really shouldn't be a Nature thing outside of Earthquake so this spell should be removed in my opinion."

Perhaps an effect of creating a cheap and relatively good unit (i.e. some animal, such as a herd of rhinos) can replace it.

[roarmalf]

"3. Blizzard - Overland unit destruction really shouldn't be a Nature thing outside of Earthquake so this spell should be removed in my opinion."

Perhaps an effect of creating a cheap and relatively good unit (i.e. some animal, such as a herd of rhinos) can replace it.

I think there is room for more summons in nature honestly.

Dryad: with casting skill, not particularly strong, but maybe with merging, or just pathfinding, or maybe only forestwalk that offers decent mobility and casting ability. Or that can specifically summon Ents/earth elementals in combat (maybe twice) but no casting skill.

Brood Mother: a giant spider upgrade that either summons giant spiders or casts web multiple times/battle. Single unit with a high poison ability, weaker than other summons of the rarity, but faster.

Ent(s): rare unit with no upkeep and low cost for the rarity, but also weaker than other rares, high defense, solid melee, forestwalk, could also be a combat summon maybe. Gives a late game option for human players to use for garrison.

[Cruel100]

"3. Blizzard - Overland unit destruction really shouldn't be a Nature thing outside of Earthquake so this spell should be removed in my opinion."

Perhaps an effect of creating a cheap and relatively good unit (i.e. some animal, such as a herd of rhinos) can replace it.

I think there is room for more summons in nature honestly.

Dryad: with casting skill, not particularly strong, but maybe with merging, or just pathfinding, or maybe only forestwalk that offers decent mobility and casting ability. Or that can specifically summon Ents/earth elementals in combat (maybe twice) but no casting skill.

Brood Mother: a giant spider upgrade that either summons giant spiders or casts web multiple times/battle. Single unit with a high poison ability, weaker than other summons of the rarity, but faster.

Ent(s): rare unit with no upkeep and low cost for the rarity, but also weaker than other rares, high defense, solid melee, forestwalk, could also be a combat summon maybe. Gives a late game option for human players to use for garrison.

I like these ideas.

[roarmalf]

Had some (possibly crazy) ideas:

Death:

We discussed a vampire creature, what if instead of a summon, we combined it with the contagion concept. There are a couple different ways I could see it going, but it would be a special spell like lycanthropy that infects a unit with vampirism. 

Disease version gives the following:

• a base flying speed of 3 or 4 (or maybe just a base speed of 3-4 with no flight, possibly only overland flight like wind mastery grants if that's doable?)
  
• become undead (with usual bonuses)
  
• weapon immunity
  
• regeneration 0
  
• Spread Vampirism -X (when a (base?) normal unit is damaged they must save at -X, where X is the damage received or gain vampirism and switch control to damaging units owner, creatures with death immunity are immune to this effect)
  

Another option would be a special spell that infects a unit with vampirism 5, which ticks down each time the unit deals damage (tastes blood) or a game turn ends. When vampirism reaches 0 then the unit turns into a Vampire under the control of the casting wizard this could target your units overland or any unit in combat. 

I'm not really sure how to balance the stats, this could be way OP given the potential for spread, or too weak:

Vampire:

• Units: 1
  
• Move: 4-5 Flying
  
• To Hit: +2 
  
• Attack: 18
  
• Defense: 8
  
• Resistance: 10
  
• Hit Points: 15
  
• Regen 2 (not sure about how fun it is to have regen on a high move flying unit, so this might need to be 0 and maybe bump HP)
  
• Undead (with usual bonuses)
  
• Weapon Immunity
  
• Spread Vampirism (as above, or using create undead rules)
  

Note: Spread Vampirism could simply be the same as create undead with only 1/4 damage dealt by the Vampire to create a new Vampire instead of the majority rule for create undead. Keeping a 5 turn delay for spreading means snowballing is much less likely, especially if the creatures you infect can be killed before they turn. Maybe just use normal "create undead" rules but also give vampirism 5 (and possibly regen 0) which determines when they change from an undead unit into a vampire. 

Note2: I think Vampirism should only work on base normal units (or perhaps just normal units) from a flavor standpoint. Making giant lizards, bears, etc. into vampires feels weird to me, and it avoids the issues of gaining access to OP undead units like Efreet too easily.


Nature Very Rare: 

Monster Mastery:
Each turn any (nature only?) node not controlled by the casting wizard has a (5-10%??) chance to generate a monster stack that targets the nearest wizard (possibly that did not cast this spell). 
Each (nature only?) node controlled by the casting wizard has a small (1-5%?) chance to summon a common (nature only?) creature, or an even smaller (0.1-1%?) chance to summon an uncommon (nature only?) creature.

Not sure if this scales with map size appropriately. Not sure how many nodes an average games has, I think the concept is interesting, but have no idea about balance.

[Seravy]

Monster Mastery:
Each turn any (nature only?) node not controlled by the casting wizard has a (5-10%??) chance to generate a monster stack that targets the nearest wizard (possibly that did not cast this spell).
Each (nature only?) node controlled by the casting wizard has a small (1-5%?) chance to summon a common (nature only?) creature, or an even smaller (0.1-1%?) chance to summon an uncommon (nature only?) creature.

Not sure if this scales with map size appropriately. Not sure how many nodes an average games has, I think the concept is interesting, but have no idea about balance.

How about this?

Version A.

Monster Mastery (rare)
Any node not owned by the casting wizard has a 10% chance to generate a rampaging monster stack each turn.
Rampaging monsters will never target the caster's cities and will avoid their units.
Whenever you attack a Lair, Node, Tower, or other neutral monster stack, each monster has a 25% chance of not participating in the battle. (they are forced to retreat if you win, but stay in the area if you lose.)

Seismic Mastery (very rare)
Whenever you cast an expensive spell, a free Earthquake spell can be cast on a target city of their choice.
The casting wizard sees all tiles on the overland map.

Node Mastery (very rare)
All nodes under the casting wizard's control have a 10% chance per turn to spawn a common or uncommon creature of that realm under the caster's control.
All nodes under the casting wizard's control produce an additional 15 power.

Version B.
Monster Mastery (rare)
Any node not owned by the casting wizard has a 10% chance to generate a rampaging monster stack each turn.
Rampaging monsters will never target the caster's cities and will avoid their units.
Whenever you attack a Lair, Node, Tower, or other neutral monster stack, each monster has a 25% chance of not participating in the battle. (they are forced to retreat if you win, but stay in the area if you lose.)

Clairvoyance (very rare)
The casting wizard sees all tiles on the overland map.
All nodes under the casting wizard's control produce an additional 15 power.

Planetary Mastery (very rare)
Whenever you cast an expensive spell, a free Earthquake spell can be cast on a target city of their choice.
All nodes under the casting wizard's control have a 10% chance per turn to spawn a creature of that realm under the caster's control.

I don't like the spreading Vampirism enchantment idea for obvious balance reasons. As Wraiths already fill the role of undead creation, Vampires should likely be about raw fighting power instead. (which Wraiths kinda lack - against high resistance targets they are basically a unit of chimeras with faster movement speed.)
(also, Regeneration by itself is very rare so a spell that grants that and more effects is definitely not an option.)

[roarmalf]

Yea, you're right about vampires. 


I like both options with a preference for option A.


I also like the idea of forests taking over the world and generating mana that you first posted. Not sure about balancing that, but I love the idea.

[Cruel100]

Version A.

[Seravy]

Let's try to summarize again.


DECIDED (not yet implemented)
A. New Nature Very rare : Each turn, X land tiles at random are converted into Forests. Gain +0.5 power for each Forest tile on the map.
B. Split Dispelling Wave : it loses the ability to dispel city enchantments
C. Add Sorcery Rare : Dispel City - dispel city enchantments, the same way Dispelling Wave could. Probably overland only.
-Name for this spell?
D. Split Uranus Blessing : lose unit buffing and combat effect, boost new skill buildings instead.
-By how much?
E. New Sorcery Uncommon : Philosopher's Stone. The two effects removed from Uranus' Blessing.
F. Spell Blast becomes Sorcery Rare
G. Magic Immunity becomes Sorcery Very Rare
H. Add new Wind Mastery Sorcery very Rare spell : all units gain Flight and +1 movement.
I. Immolation should gain Cold Immunity.
J. New Chaos Uncommon spell : Insulation : enchanted unit gains Fire Immunity and Lightning Resistance. (and same change to item creation)
K. Fire Storm becomes Chaos Rare
L. Divine Order becomes Life Rare
N. Drain Power becomes a Death Rare
O. Eternal Night loses "halved power" effect.
-Possibly change to be +2/+2 for Death creatures through Darkness?
P. Restore Earth to Mud to the original 6 movement cost tile effect.
-Currently doesn't affect Forest tiles, like the original did to Hill tiles which no longer exist. Are we happy with that or should the rain destroy the trees and turn those to Mud tiles as well?
Q. Fire Elemental, reduce cost to 14.
R. Darkness, reduce cost to 20.
S. Split Seismic Mastery to two spells (see above post for the two versions)
T. Add new Monster Mastery Nature Rare.
U. Add new Life Common, Discipline
V. Move Endurance to Uncommon, add HP gain effect.
W. Add Chain Lightning as Chaos Very Rare
X. Split up Gaia's Blessing to two spells.
Y. Summon Demon will not summon Death Demons anymore.

Remaining spell slots (assuming 10/10/12/12 spells) or other issues :

Nature
Rare gains Monster Mastery and the split of Gaia's Blessing.
Very rare gains the Forest making global and the split of Seismic Mastery.
We have 1 unused rare slot only if we remove Blizzard.

1. Decide how to split Seismic Mastery.
-Version A is more appropriate for flavor
-Version B plays better (Seismic Mastery from version A is a spell human players will usually not want to cast and isn't very beneficial even to the AI other than being a pain when targeting the human player with earthquakes.)
2. Remove Blizzard or keep it?
3. Do we want to adjust the numbers on Earthquake?
3. Possible new rare : Stone Age - all normal units gain 1 defense.
4. Maybe a new creature : Dryad - how would this be functionally different from Stone Giant? (which is decent ranged creature with good resistance)
5. Maybe a new creature : Ent - What makes this better than Gorgons and Earth Elementals which both hit extremely hard in melee?

Sorcery
Uncommon loses Spell Blast, gains Philopher's Stone (weapon and counter magic effect from Uranus)
Rare gains Spell Blast, gains City effect of Dispelling Wave, loses Magic Immunity
Very rare gains Magic Immunity, Wind Mastery.
Overall there is 1 unused rare slot left.

6. How do we improve Wind Walking?
7. Vertigo, change effect to -25% To Hit, -7% To Defend or other numbers, or keep the 30/10%?
8. Possible new rare global enchantment : all units gain +3 resistance.

Chaos
Uncommon loses Fire Storm, gains Insolation.
Rare gains Fire Storm
Very rare gains Chain Lightning
This leaves 1 unused rare and very rare slot.

9. Do we want Fire, or Cold Immunity on Immolation?
Fire makes more sense, but Cold plays better (as it means Fire and Lightning are on the same spell, making that spell effective against Chaos without having to cast two spells.)
10. Magic Vortex, do we want to adjust/reduce the damage, if yes, how and which part?
11. Do we want to swap resistance on Efreet and Doom Bat?
12. Do we want to adjust Warp Reality to be between 15-20% reduction instead of the full 20?
13. Possible new rare global : Fire Mastery (fire magical ranged attacks, fire breath, fire creature gain a buff)
14. Possible new very rare global : Blazing Eyes (all normal units gain Doom Gaze, OR all Chaos units gain Doom Gaze, in this case it requires doom mastery to be good)
15. Possible new very rare global : Lightning Mastery (all units gain lighting breath and lightning resistance)

Life
Common loses Endurance, gains Discipline.
Uncommon gains Endurance, loses Divine Order
Rare gains Divine Order
This leaves 1 rare and 2 very rare slots.

16. Change Prayer to +9% instead of +10%?
17. Any changes to Archangel?
18. Maybe move Holy Arms down to rare? (might be too good for that? +20% damage isn't that much worse than +25% hp or an extra level actually, at least not by a full tier.)
19. Probably want a new rare or very rare creature that supports units in a different way than buffing stats.
-Prevent enemy attacks?
-Force enemy units to retreat?
-Convert enemy normal units to your side? (probably too powerful and hard to balance?)
20. Probably want a very rare spell that buffs a unit into a supernatural, powerful creature.
For example "Enchanted normal unit becomes fantastic, loses all levels, has doubled base hp, attack strength and defense, and gains Supernatural. It counts as a Life creature. This changes the unit's base type, making the unit invalid for buffs that target normal units only."
21. Even if we add both of the above we still have one unused slot.

Death
Uncommon loses Drain Power
Rare gains Drain Power
We have an unused uncommon (or common if moving Mana Leak) , rare and two very rare slots.

22. Add Reaper's Favor? (common or uncommon, 13 MP, save at -X or die, regain casting skill and possibly ability to cast a spell on success.)
23. Demon Lords, we need to nerf summoning demons.
-Summon Demons without spellcasting, like the original?
-Summon 3 demons regardless of the amount of Demon Lords in battle?
24. Do we want to change Evil Omens?
25. Possible new Rare creature : Vampire. More durable and stronger than Wraiths, gain HP through melee damage (how?), makes no undead, very low magic resistance, only one, very powerful figure, probably also needs regeneration.
-Lack of resistance is an obvious drawback to a unit that's pretty much unkillable by melee and average ranged attacks. However that makes the unit weak against Life (Exorcise), Nature (Petrify), Sorcery (Banish) although powerful against Chaos (Warp Creature only, Disintegrate is higher tier) and Death (has Death Immunity, Weakness and Gate of Hades isn't enough to kill it.). It can be powerful against any realm if they miss out on their 1-2 resistance based spells so it is also a good option vs 2-3 realm wizards as long as it's known they don't have those spells.
26. Add new very rare : Mourning? global that kills off the best unit(s) of each player after each 4 turns it stays in play. (ignore heroes? Include heroes but let them resist the spell through resistance in which case the spell targets the next best unit?)
27. Add New very rare : Darkest Hour? global that halves research and religious power income for all other players. (would be Death's road to a spell of mastery victory so we might actually need this?)
28. Add New very rare : Withering? All enemy units lose 1 (or a percentage) of maximal hit points. Units with zero hit points die  instantly. (too powerful against magician garrisons?)
29. Maybe a curse that stays on a unit after battle? (this requires playing battles for the loss, not a player friendly game mechanic)
30. Maybe curses that spread between enemy units? (also requires losing a battle to cast the curse, and why spread instead of simply making it a global enchantment?)
31. Possibly a stronger version of the old, removed Black Wind? (we removed it because we found no balanced solution for the effect so most likely not?)

I think that's about everything that's still undecided.