Caster of Magic II Spell System overhaul discussion

[Seravy]

It might actually be a good idea to mix the two ideas and do

"Ruler of Heaven
All of your global enchantments are 100% harder to dispel.
All of your religious buildings produce 2 more power."

That still isn't nearly as good as Life Force on power production, but the combo potential with Dark Ritual (and Cult Leader) exists, and dispel resistance is still good.

It does become an economy spell that way though which we didn't want but no matter how much I think about it, I can't come up with an idea for a Life combat spell that isn't healing or buffing.

[htester]

It might actually be a good idea to mix the two ideas and do

"Ruler of Heaven
All of your global enchantments are 100% harder to dispel.
All of your religious buildings produce 2 more power."

That still isn't nearly as good as Life Force on power production, but the combo potential with Dark Ritual (and Cult Leader) exists, and dispel resistance is still good.

It does become an economy spell that way though which we didn't want but no matter how much I think about it, I can't come up with an idea for a Life combat spell that isn't healing or buffing.

I am happy with this version. And maybe the name could be inverted (Heaven`s Rule)?One more thing about wind walking, do you plan to keep the spell as an enchament (instead of designing a creature to keep the hability)?

[Seravy]

One more thing about wind mastery, do you plan to keep the spell as an enchament (instead of designing a creature to keep the hability)?

You mean Wind Walking? I keep it as a spell but I haven't decided how to improve it, if we can.

[Seravy]

This is the current "default spell pick table" for human players.
It determines what spells are chosen when a predefined wizard is picked, the random option is used, or what spells are ticked by default when picking "custom".

Code:

// Nature
((SWarBears,SSprites,SFairyDust,SWeb,SNaturesEye),
(SGreatLizard,SChangeTerrain,0,0,0),
(SStoneGiant,0,0,0,0)),
// Sorcery
((SFloatingIsland,SAetherSparks,SConfusion,SPhantomWarriors,SNagas),
(SFlight,SWaterElemental,0,0,0),
(SStormGiant,0,0,0,0)),
// Chaos
((SFireBolt,SHellHounds,SWarpCreature,SCorruption,SWarpWood),
(SChaosChannels,SChimeras,0,0,0),
(SWarpLightning,0,0,0,0)),
// Life
((SHeroism,SHealing,SHeavenlyLight,SHolyArmor,SHolyWeapon),
(SPrayer,SUnicorns,0,0,0),
(SIncarnation,0,0,0,0)),
// Death
((SGhouls,SZombies,SSkeletons,SBlackSleep,SDarkness),
(SLycanthropy,SSyphonLife,0,0,0),
(SZombieMastery,0,0,0,0)));

We need to add 1 more rare, and 3 very rares to this table. The criteria is to offer a selection that best defines the realm, is newbie friendly, useful and fun to play, and where possible, is not the most powerful pick available.

So... here is what I've set up as a first attempt :

Code:

// Nature
((SWarBears,SSprites,SFairyDust,SWeb,SNaturesEye),
(SGreatLizard,SChangeTerrain,0,0,0),
(SStoneGiant,SIronSkin,0,0,0),
(SGreatWyrm,SRegeneration,SFairyRing,0,0)),
// Sorcery
((SFloatingIsland,SAetherSparks,SConfusion,SPhantomWarriors,SNagas),
(SFlight,SWaterElemental,0,0,0),
(SStormGiant,SReinforceMagic,0,0,0),
(SSkyDrake,SMagicImmunity,SWindMastery,0,0)),
// Chaos
((SFireBolt,SHellHounds,SWarpCreature,SCorruption,SWarpWood),
(SChaosChannels,SChimeras,0,0,0),
(SWarpLightning,SDoomBat,0,0,0),
(SCallTheVoid,SChaosSurge,SChainLightning,0,0)),
// Life
((SHeroism,SHealing,SHeavenlyLight,SHolyArmor,SHolyWeapon),
(SPrayer,SUnicorns,0,0,0),
(SIncarnation,SInsipration,0,0,0),
(SCrusade,SLifeForce,SPhoenix,0,0)),
// Death
((SGhouls,SZombies,SSkeletons,SBlackSleep,SDarkness),
(SLycanthropy,SSyphonLife,0,0,0),
(SZombieMastery,SVampire,0,0,0),
(SAnnihilate,SDemonLord,SFinalWave,0,0)));

[Seravy]

AI starting and guaranteed spell picks.

This does not use a table, instead it adds spells in a predetermined order while picks are available, but each spell might have conditions (or might appear in more than one position in the order with different conditions).

Mana Leak was the AI's 6th common Death spell choice. It's no longer a common so it'll be replaced by "6. If nature books>=4 then pick Mislead.".

Endurance was simply replaced in the same choice order with Discipline.

Fire Storm was the AI's 1st uncommon chaos choice. It'll be replaced by adding
"1. If climate=frozen then pick Raise Volcano"
and
"4. Pick Mystic Surge"

as Gargoyles are already picked as the creature if a better one from a different realm isn't available, and Fireball is not really worth the pick. Without Fire Storm, this spell tier is a bit weak for the AI, it isn't that great at using Immolation or Chaos Channels. Maybe Chaos Channels might be better though. Either way, this 4.th pick is only reached if the land isn't frozen and the AI picked Giant Spiders, so it implies 5 Nature books (or 8 Death books but that's not possible with 7 Chaos books needed to have 2 uncommons). Nature is good with fantastic units so maybe "4.Chaos Channels" might be better here?

Life picks Divine Order as it's 6th choice but it's not uncommon now. (the first 5 have very specific conditions so this is actually reached often)
Picking Endurance might be good here, without any additional conditions.

Magic Immunity is gone from Sorcery rare, so I'll replace it with picking Invisibility.

Now the interesting part, there is 1 more rare spell pick at 8 books.

For Nature, I'll add these :
3. if Life books>=3 then pick Abundance
4. pick Earth Elemental

I'm not sure about "4" as it has an obvious weakness in its movement speed, but it's still by far the most important thing to have other than an overland creature because Nature is really lacking in combat spell options at rare.

For Chaos, it always picks Flame Strike, and occasionally picks Doom Mastery (if there are combo realms for it).
The second pick could be Fire Storm or Doom Bolt, not sure which. Warp Lightning is solid, too, as are the creatures although Efreet is not that obvious now that is has bad resistance.

3. If Resist Magic was picked, pick Efreet
4. Pick Doom Bolt

sounds like a solid choice. Although for Chaos+Sorcery, picking Inner Power (the fire mastery spell) might be even better?

For Sorcery, I think it's obvious that it wants Storm Giant as its second pick of rare. Having a creature is always important for the AI. (Conjurers already used the pick on Air Elemental though.

Life always uses the first pick on Invulnerability.
For the second, Holy Arms sounds like a solid choice.

Death picks various things depending on retorts or personality already, and then picks Wave of Despair.
If none of those conditions applied, the second pick is probably best spend on Cloud of Darkness (if the Death AI can defend itself, the undead and curses do the rest) or Terror (to have something that is good against many enemies while Wave is good on fewer.)

Finally, the very rares. This is the part I'm worried about, although only 1 realm AIs really get any and those had almost all the spells in the old system either way.

Nature needs a creature but I really don't want to lock the AI into using one of the three and missing all 3 is super unlikely.
It also needs Call Lightning the most I think.

So...

1. Call Lightning
2. Random creature (any one of the 3)
3. Entangle

Sorcery.
Life probably wants Magic Immunity for buff stacking and Nature for its creatures.
Time Stop if alchemist.
Spell Ward for Sage Masters and Runemasters for SoM wins.

Otherwise, idk. Spell Binding, Spell Ward, Time Stop obviously but it wouldn't be very fun to see that on the AI all the time...although it doesn't really happen unless they picked enough books and are monocolor. Sky Drake and Djinn are quite important too to have at least one creature. I guess the creature at random if there is only one pick, otherwise the other spells and hoping to roll one creature?
So 1 pick = random creature, 2 picks = Spell Binding and Spell Ward, 3 picks = Spell Binding, Spell Ward and Time Stop.
Or pick Time Stop instead of Spell Ward on 2 picks?

Chaos.
Disintegrate if we picked Mind Storm for the combo.
Armageddon - it is the spell that wins the game afterall.
Then Apocalypse or Chain Lightning at random.
..or always Apocalypse? But we always pick Flame Strike so maybe don't even need either?
This still leaves 1 pick on 10 book wizards. Doomsday and Meteor Storm are the best choices but aren't fun to play against.
Chaos doesn't need the creatures that much. Call the Void is similarly unfun as the globals but at least avoidable by diplomacy and city protection spells. 10 books implies we do have all the rares though so that means we have Doom Mastery so it's worth picking Chaos Surge or Blazing Eyes, or even Warp Reality. WR might be the most powerful but it's a bit of a "why bother" when we also have the damage spells.
What if we picked the combat damage spell only if books<=9 and otherwise picked BOTH chaos surge and Warp Reality? I think I'll go with that.

Life.
Archangel, no doubt.
Probably High Prayer next and Charm of Life as final one.
Call to Arms can be a quite powerful AI choice as well though.
This is a bit of a problem one because the military globals are only good if you have them all.

Maybe like this :
1.If Sage Master then Enlightenment
2.Archangel (the AI will be too stupid to use Destiny effectively)
3.If Conjurer then Call to Arms
4.If 10 books then Crusade and Charm of Life
5.If Cult Leader then Ruler of Heaven
6.High Prayer

and finally, Death

1. If we took Mind Storm then Annihilate
2. Maniacal or Ruthless then Pestilence
3. Demon Lord or Death Knight at random
4. Massacre
5. Eternal Night

That's everything.

[Seravy]

There is way too much stuff here so I'm going to start threads for each separate data table we need to discuss.

https://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/show...?tid=10054
https://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/show...?tid=10053

We still have 3 more tables to fill, the AI research priorities, the research costs themselves, and the AI's "reroll character is none of the listed spells are available" table.

While Guaranteed Very Rares fix AI wizards to always work well on 7+ books, dual realm wizards were which needed the reroll table, who don't get a guaranteed very rare still, so it's still necessary but need to be expanded with the new spells.

Then there is also the AI priority table for disjunction and spell binding, and spell trading as well.
So another 6 threads beyond those 2 are coming...

[Seravy]

Even if that happens I can't see this spell going in a direction to keep its original puporse: improving movement on overland map.

Actually, what if we did exactly that?

The maps are larger and instant razing has been removed from the game so being able to move faster is not as much of a balance issue as it used to be but also more desired to have at least on the "movement" realm. You can't leave the city and move to the next one after conquest either way - unless you already killed every enemy army nearby but then you are anything but fast - although having more speed does help reaching the next city in 1 turn instead of several in the odd case they are more than 4-6 tiles apart from each other.
Aside from collecting lair treasure faster, and possibly AI attacks coming from outside your scouting range more often, I see no other major downsides.

If we accept going in that direction,  we could choose from one of these effects :

A. Enchanted unit gains Wind Walking and +2 overland movement speed.
B. Enchanted unit gains Wind Walking and it has a minimal overland movement speed of 6. (the spell already does his btw except for "minimal 3")

A. would be relevant in all cases but could result in some crazy fast stacks, while B would limit speed at Doom Bat rate but means the spell is useless for Life wizards. (Endurance+Discipline on elite warship is 6 moves.)
Considering the spell is in a high research cost bracket, A might be the better choice.

[Slingers]

Something else that would help to improve movement in the course of the game could be a new type of engineer unit that can build better roads, needs a special Race or some buildings or a certain game-time to be available ...

For Wind Walking I would choose B with a minimal movement speed of 4 or 5 and see how it is later.

[Seravy]

For Wind Walking I would choose B with a minimal movement speed of 4 or 5 and see how it is later.

Well, the exact same as it is now, basically. Boats move at 4, heroes move at 4-5 with any common item, cavalry moves at 5.

[htester]

If we accept going in that direction,  we could choose from one of these effects :

A. Enchanted unit gains Wind Walking and +2 overland movement speed.
B. Enchanted unit gains Wind Walking and it has a minimal overland movement speed of 6. (the spell already does his btw except for "minimal 3")

I pick option B just for safety and avoiding "crazy fast stacks" on overland.