WW 46: Wolves Return to Realms Beyond

[Charriu]

Tally:
SD (3): CMF,Serdoa,Adrien,thrawn
GKC (3): Commodore, Charriu, SD
Pindi (3): naufr, Cyneheard,Gaspar
Commodore (2): ElGrillo,Rowain
naufr (1): GKC
Lewwyn (1):  Bob
thrawn (1): scooter
scooter (1): pindi
El Grillo (1): Lewwyn

not voted (1): Meiz

Isn't the vote for thrawn from scooter gone too with the player substitution?

[Cyneheard]

Tally:
SD (3): CMF,Serdoa,Adrien,thrawn
GKC (3): Commodore, Charriu, SD
Pindi (3): naufr, Cyneheard,Gaspar
Commodore (2): ElGrillo,Rowain
naufr (1): GKC
Lewwyn (1):  Bob
thrawn (1): scooter
scooter (1): pindi
El Grillo (1): Lewwyn

not voted (1): Meiz

Isn't the vote for thrawn from scooter gone too with the player substitution?

I wouldn’t think so - I’d say it’s for Meiz but we’re not close to the end of the day so one vote on a replaced role only means so much. If for some strange reason it becomes relevant 27 hours from now, Brick might have to step in.

[Lewwyn]

El Grillo: He's really putting some good thought into his questions and his tone isn't overall totally scummy. If he's not a major then he's a detective at least from the way he interacts.

Man you can't determine a specific role like detective from someone's posts. In fact he's acting as innocent as possible which is the opposite of what a detective with a night power would do. Random villagers should be the ones doing the day hunting. And don't call people out for wolves to target unless you're a wolf.

All I see from El Grillo is questions without much thought about the answers. That's one of the best ways for a wolf to appear active and engaged without actually putting forth something that can be pinned down and used against him.

I looked through his PB threads and he has way more personality there than here. Here its overly formal and blank slate.

[Lewwyn]

Just when I though I was out, I pulled myself back in   Great to see all the familiar names and new faces onboard

Oh Baby, baby! Hit me baby one more time!

[Rowain]

Isn't the vote for thrawn from scooter gone too with the player substitution?

Yes should be so.
thrawn is gone so any vote for him is gone too. Will correct it in the next tally if scooter doesn't change his vote.

[Meiz]

Just when I though I was out, I pulled myself back in   Great to see all the familiar names and new faces onboard

Oh Baby, baby! Hit me baby one more time!

Ah good times! 

[Lewwyn]

Man so many pages to go thru already. Serdoa Seems a likely candidate.

Any particular reason?

Questioning my motives? Rowain

Questioning my motives? Rowain

Ew

Yeah, that was a weak attack for questionable reasons accomplishing nothing. Fortunately, as a regular, I can tell you that's the Superdeath signature. 

<3

im always learning.  GeneralKilCavalry Has convinced me that he is upto something.

Are you effing me? What is that exchange?

1. superdeath votes me, no reason given
2. Rowain questions it, no explanation given, votes Rowain
3. Lewwyn chimes in with disgust, no vote tough
4. Commodore chimes in, with a joke, no vote again
5. superdeath still doesn't explain anything and reroutes his vote AGAIN, and again with no explanation

And none of you put at least a bit of pressure on him?

superdeath
I would like to get an explanation. Why did you vote me? Why did you vote Rowain? Why did you vote GKC?
And I would like to know from Lew and Commodore why they don't pressure him at all, but try to give him an easy out?

I support this.  I just can't vote for everybody at the same time.

----------------------------------------------------------------

That's not much of a defense!  Gonna need at least two paragraphs or maybe one really self-righteous run-on sentence to switch my vote.

I actually do think nauf is suspicious. You're accusation that I was jumping on Nauf because he was trying to explain himself is a bit off. It's the way he went about defending that piques my interest. But more than that it's early days. And I have a few hunches brewing.

And to be fair about your accusation, Superdeath quick voted for the two people I view as most likely innocent so far. And in a manner I find to be "No U" which is ew.

And why not vote him then? I mean, you explain exactly why it would make sense to pressure him, but don't? I also grow more and more suspicious of your "Defending Serdoa"-routine.

What can I say except that sounds like Serdoa.  
Same reason as before though, I can't vote for everybody at once. But it really looks like my El Grillo vote isn't getting traction. His polite formal questions is really lulling people into a sense of security. He is not a newbie to werewolf! He knows how to play!

Also CMF My El Grillo thoughts came with my response to pindicator which you mention as well. So in fact my El grillo vote came before you started.

It's fine, but it does make me suspicious of you, rolling up with this LIST. It's a list that is at least partially made up of "this is what happened" rather than this person is scummy because of this, or this person is townie because of this.

Then again I don't want to be too harsh since you've had a long day, and I'd like people to play again in the future...

Sorry, but did you make a course in non-aggressive talking Lewwyn? That really does not sound like you.

Day 1, newbie, and I'm too happy there's a WW game to be so aggressive right away. But yes if CMF comes back with shit, he's gonna get some shit.

[naufragar]

Oh Serdoa, you come back and it’s like you’ve forgotten all about me. To recap: I needled Lewwyn and you jumped to his defense:

I think Lewwyn and I have a special bond. I would vote him back but I don't like what that would do currently.

Notice two things: You don’t yet find my question scummy. In fact, you consider it valid and defend Lewwyn from it. Second, you have this weird non-sequitur about how a “normal” Serdoa would react in a vacuum but there’s circumstances preventing it (specifically, you don’t want to put Lewwyn in the lead).

Then GKC votes for me for being defensive while Rowain comes at me for a more substantive reason. This is when you go in on me. I give an explanation here. You don’t like it, so you keep at me, ending with:

I get the feeling that you know very well who is a wolf and who not. It's hard to argue with someone when you know your arguments and explanations are lies, isn't it?

The second sentence, the ad hominem calling me an inept liar is whatever. The first sentence was bothering me for a long time and I couldn’t put my finger on it. You think I’m a liar, fine. You think I’m a wolf, ok. Why in the world do you make the jump from attacking me for my arguments to me getting tripped up on insider scum knowledge. I can’t find the reason for this leap; I think you’re projecting.

In between this exchange, you get challenged on your earlier statement “I would vote [Lewwyn] back but I don't like what that would do currently.” (#33). You respond to that challenge with contrived gobbledygook: “And I did not want the ranking changed at that time as I did not see that as beneficial. There was nothing giving me a reason to believe I can gauge more from the reactions towards Lewwyn leading than to myself leading.” (#49) For starters, your generally straightforward speech turns knotty. More importantly, you change your position: you had said “I don’t like what that would do.” As in, you actively dislike putting Lewwyn in the lead. What is your reason for this active feeling? “There was nothing giving me a reason to believe…” Suddenly it’s passive. Suddenly, all things are equal, so you might as well keep the vote tied. You thought you needed a defense from my challenge in post 33 but it was hasty and weak and it changed by post 49.

I responded and went to bed, eager to hear your reply to my own defense. I come back and you’re attacking Superdeath with not a word about me. Why not even a mention? I suspect it’s because you sensed that the bus on me was slowing down. But never mind, it’s easy to find another newbie to lynch, and newbie mislynch votes are easy to explain away. Superdeath’s actions have been anti-town. The persona fits with the SD I know from Civ, but yes, his comments haven’t helped town.

Here’s your attack:

Are you effing me? What is that exchange?

1. superdeath votes me, no reason given
2. Rowain questions it, no explanation given, votes Rowain
3. Lewwyn chimes in with disgust, no vote tough
4. Commodore chimes in, with a joke, no vote again
5. superdeath still doesn't explain anything and reroutes his vote AGAIN, and again with no explanation

And none of you put at least a bit of pressure on him?

superdeath
I would like to get an explanation. Why did you vote me? Why did you vote Rowain? Why did you vote GKC?
And I would like to know from Lew and Commodore why they don't pressure him at all, but try to give him an easy out?

I actually have no problem with your argument here. Just note two things: it’s time to knife a newbie, but we also need to throw suspicion on some veteran bystanders.

But there’s a third knife-able newbie who hasn’t even drawn a glance from you. GKC’s been very suspicious, but when it comes time to talk about him, the actual newbie doesn’t get knifed, instead you go in on the vets.

I found that whole post of your [i.e. Pindicator] scummy to be honest, but this part is what gets me. You lay out in the first part very well why his behaviour reeks of wolfness (not being interested why he is being targeted, because he himself knows that they are right), but then you turn around and basically state "oh, you really sounded like a wolf, but you are new"... But I miss the explanation how newness has anything to do with being uninterested in why others target you?

Similarly, responding to Gaspar:

<snip>

Much text that does not say much though. We have gone over this arguments in the old games already so often and why giving players a pass just because they are (or pretend to be) new, isn't really doing much for town. Pressuring players, no matter how long they play, helps, at least to understand how they play, how they react. Especially later on that is important.

You’re looking for a newbie to lynch and are happy to ride the bus on me or Superdeath (ride, not drive both times). But GKC gets the kid gloves.

Finally, as an addendum, here’s why I think GKC is scummy. He votes punchy and reactive: he voted for Commodore (jokingly) for roleplay (11). Then Cyneheard gets his vote for poking his head up to tell GKC how to use the code tags (26). Then I respond to Lewwyn and he votes me for being defensive (40). Pindicator points out his vote hopping to which GKC responds “Do you want me to make that into 4 votes in 6 posts? Not a lot to discuss at this stage, except Serdoa/naufragar being a bit confrontational and awkward.” (https://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/show...#pid744393). Pindi prods him on voting multiple times and his reaction is “I’ll vote for you if you poke me.” Notice this is different from his repeated (87) (113) (125) requests to ignore his first two votes because he was “simply testing out the commands.”

But let’s say that his first real vote is on me. Why? “My vote for nauf is more of a way to prod” (100). I might’ve missed it, but has he put any analysis into that vote afterwards, or indeed any post so far? Lots of playing defense (I empathize); very little forward motion. Except! The one tantalizing bit is scummy!

Nauf awkwardly dancing around it just made it worth latching onto, and putting more pressure onto awkwardness is the MO of the opening few turns of this game, as far as I understand.

Just wanted to point out that Rowain was the first to latch onto this minor minor detail. (See post #36) Make of that what you will...

My read of Rowain is town. Consequently I think the people who have been taking passive aggressive jabs at him (like GKC) are suspect. What in the world is this last sentence doing? All GKC has done is parrot the consensus “Nauf was defensive” but added a little spotlight onto Rowain.

Alright. This has already taken up my morning cereal and most of my morning coffee. Serdoa, although I’d be happy with a GKC vote. I would vote Superdeath for anti-town-ness. Don’t have a read on him either way.

Don't expect this often. It's exhausting.

[scooter]

Looks like I'm the only person in this game so far to successfully vote somebody out.

Let's see what Commodore thinks now.

[Meiz]

Ok, my initial thoughts.

naufragar has been accused on being over defensive, but I think as town you usually want to throughly answer to all accusations (which is over defensive yes), and that's what he has done. I'd be more suspicious for laid back and carefree play here. As for Serdoa's accusation on the lack of voting agaisnt Lewwyn when finding him fishy, at the time of reading his prodding (#30) for Lewwyn seemed very lighthearted reference to knives being pulled and that thought aligns with his later explanation (#59). Didn't find it suspicious and in general leaning more town than wolf on him so far.

I did find the accusations against naufragars over defense overexaggerated. We had GKC prodding early (#40), though it's early game.
Lewwyn is the main accuser (#91) (#104) and Gaspar keeps mentioning the super scummy play (#58) (#92). How was the play super scummy? I don't see how else he should have behaved? I know this is a bit old topic seeing as the game has moved on but still.

Scooters latest post aligns nicely with my thoughts on the above. So small town lean while waiting for more content.

AdrienIer is popping to thread with a very pinpoint question (#39). His second content post (#144) contains a vote and couple of remarks on players. He did explain quietness with a lack of time (which works for all alignments), but so far I find his play so far very tidy and clean (in a wolfy way), staying out from a general conversation flow but bringing small bits of value in.

Commodore was quick to defend/townread naufragar (or that's how I interpreted it) (#52). I'm not sure if his comment on superdeath was defense or just a joke. Regardless, I did find the over eagerness to defend here slightly wolfy. Otherwise his play has been a pinpointed attack againts GKC while ignoring the rest.

superdeath is total null with his play so far. A very easy cover for a wolf