WW 46: Wolves Return to Realms Beyond

[Commodore]

The most productive defense is active hunting of scum, it also gives a useful trail when and if you die; if you have the time you might be best served giving us your reads on other people.

[GeneralKilCavalry]

Sure, but on the third vote the same explanation becomes a little bit tiresome, especially since these votes ALL seem to be bandwagoning on things other people had mentioned prior to you. My vote-switching was a reply to someone explaining to me how to vote, something of a mechanical nature.

I'm not sure others here will buy this explanation. Not switching my vote, as of yet, though.

[Cyneheard]

Superdeath, thanks for responding (and I know work sucks, tell me about it...) but wow does this not help. "I was just joking around" now needs more content behind it.

(I know there's a risk of cross-posts here, this was written after Post #243).

I'll try to check in later with more detailed thoughts, but dinner needs my attention first.

[superdeath]

The most productive defense is active hunting of scum, it also gives a useful trail when and if you die; if you have the time you might be best served giving us your reads on other people.

Asbergers makes this part hard as i cant read people very well.

Sure, but on the third vote the same explanation becomes a little bit tiresome, especially since these votes ALL seem to be bandwagoning on things other people had mentioned prior to you. My vote-switching was a reply to someone explaining to me how to vote, something of a mechanical nature.

I'm not sure others here will buy this explanation. Not switching my vote, as of yet, though.

When i "joined" and posted we were already SEVERAL hours and posts down, where everyone else got their free rides on lame-duck votes.

Superdeath, thanks for responding (and I know work sucks, tell me about it...) but wow does this not help. "I was just joking around" now needs more content behind it.

(I know there's a risk of cross-posts here, this was written after Post #243).

I'll try to check in later with more detailed thoughts, but dinner needs my attention first.

why does it NOW need more content behind it? Because i was late to the beginning "holy crap WW is being played again!" hype train? Having trouble understanding WHY i would be under scrutiny. Is it just Day 1 "hey lets lynch Someone!"?


Game gets more confusing the more i read everyones posts i swear.

[GeneralKilCavalry]

why does it NOW need more content behind it? Because i was late to the beginning "holy crap WW is being played again!" hype train? Having trouble understanding WHY i would be under scrutiny. Is it just Day 1 "hey lets lynch Someone!"?

Almost. Right now, it's "hey let's push people so they break".

I still find it far better to vote for nauf over you.

What do you think of the situation right now? Anyone look suspicious to you?

[Cyneheard]

Trying to keep this to the point.

Not lynching = just gives the wolves more time to kill people, so yes lynches do need to happen.

So if all you're doing is joking around, but not then trying to help find scum? That's not helpful, which is why I called it out and moved my vote.

It's been over a day, so there's plenty more to dig through, and I know I need to do this more myself.

This is not a fair game. All of the posts are true, especially the lies. Everyone is suspicious, and everyone is a suspect.

[GeneralKilCavalry]

Trying to keep this to the point.

Not lynching = just gives the wolves more time to kill people, so yes lynches do need to happen.

So if all you're doing is joking around, but not then trying to help find scum? That's not helpful, which is why I called it out and moved my vote.

It's been over a day, so there's plenty more to dig through, and I know I need to do this more myself.

This is not a fair game. All of the posts are true, especially the lies. Everyone is suspicious, and everyone is a suspect.

Well, assuming there are no good leads, the probability of lynching a townie is higher than a wolf. So it's not really giving the mafia more time per se, unless I understand incorrectly. The point of lynching early is it gives information. Who voted for? Who was eager? Who was pushing? It gives far far more information than a death during the night.

[superdeath]

why does it NOW need more content behind it? Because i was late to the beginning "holy crap WW is being played again!" hype train? Having trouble understanding WHY i would be under scrutiny. Is it just Day 1 "hey lets lynch Someone!"?

Almost. Right now, it's "hey let's push people so they break".

I still find it far better to vote for nauf over you.

What do you think of the situation right now? Anyone look suspicious to you?

The situation right now looks to me like no one has shown actually suspicion. Im still trying to get a read on people and what would constitute a vote. To me, 99.9% of these votes and posts all just look like banter to me.

[GeneralKilCavalry]

Oh Serdoa, you come back and it’s like you’ve forgotten all about me. To recap: I needled Lewwyn and you jumped to his defense:

I think Lewwyn and I have a special bond. I would vote him back but I don't like what that would do currently.

Notice two things: You don’t yet find my question scummy. In fact, you consider it valid and defend Lewwyn from it. Second, you have this weird non-sequitur about how a “normal” Serdoa would react in a vacuum but there’s circumstances preventing it (specifically, you don’t want to put Lewwyn in the lead).

I didn't vote you for your question towards Lewwyn tough. I voted you because you called my self-vote fishy but had not acted on it. You tried to explain that away by first saying you were just parking a vote on a vet (namely pindicator), and later you explained that you didn't want to double up on me.

But the point stays: You found it fishy. And then called Lewwyn out because he voted me but did not mention it. But again did not act on it. I called you out for your behavior, for words that did not match actions.

Honestly, I've re-read our exchange because I thought I might have missed something as I was more dead than alive yesterday. But I haven't missed anything. You just didn't actually post it and my reasoning and instead singled one of my posts (that had nothing to do with my vote) out and make it sound like it is contradicting anything, when it really isn't at all.

Then GKC votes for me for being defensive while Rowain comes at me for a more substantive reason. This is when you go in on me. I give an explanation here. You don’t like it, so you keep at me, ending with:

I get the feeling that you know very well who is a wolf and who not. It's hard to argue with someone when you know your arguments and explanations are lies, isn't it?

The second sentence, the ad hominem calling me an inept liar is whatever. The first sentence was bothering me for a long time and I couldn’t put my finger on it. You think I’m a liar, fine. You think I’m a wolf, ok. Why in the world do you make the jump from attacking me for my arguments to me getting tripped up on insider scum knowledge. I can’t find the reason for this leap; I think you’re projecting.

And here you again ignore everything I posted as the actual reason for my vote. Instead you complain that I insulted you as liar - in a game that is about finding out who is lying! Really? That's your defense? Serdoa is a baddie because he accuses me of the very thing that is at the core of this game? Or is is only the inept part? That's not really an insult though... would you rather be a good liar?

But lets look at the other part of that "argument". You again take what I wrote and simply misinterpret it to the point of it being not remotely what I said. I never wrote you "tripped up on insider knowledge". What I wrote is that as a wolf, it is much harder to accuse people you know are innocent. And I think that you showed that behavior.

Also I never attacked you for your arguments, you didn't have any to begin with.

In between this exchange, you get challenged on your earlier statement “I would vote [Lewwyn] back but I don't like what that would do currently.” (#33). You respond to that challenge with contrived gobbledygook: “And I did not want the ranking changed at that time as I did not see that as beneficial. There was nothing giving me a reason to believe I can gauge more from the reactions towards Lewwyn leading than to myself leading.” (#49) For starters, your generally straightforward speech turns knotty. More importantly, you change your position: you had said “I don’t like what that would do.” As in, you actively dislike putting Lewwyn in the lead. What is your reason for this active feeling? “There was nothing giving me a reason to believe…” Suddenly it’s passive. Suddenly, all things are equal, so you might as well keep the vote tied. You thought you needed a defense from my challenge in post 33 but it was hasty and weak and it changed by post 49.

I really don't even get that argument. You again come up with things that are not there and try to sell them as facts. I'm not a native English speaker. I don't like what it would do, namely putting someone in the lead which I don't feel like I can gauge anything from him being there. See how awkward this sentence is? How do you write that "active"? Honestly, it is hard to translate from my language and some things will sound dumb. I'd rather we get that over with now, similar to "you called me a liar, how dare you"-exchanges and "he did not react fast enough" (yes, because men needs sleep and some even work...).  

I responded and went to bed, eager to hear your reply to my own defense. I come back and you’re attacking Superdeath with not a word about me. Why not even a mention? I suspect it’s because you sensed that the bus on me was slowing down. But never mind, it’s easy to find another newbie to lynch, and newbie mislynch votes are easy to explain away.

What was there to reply? You replied to something I didn't write, similar to what you do here. And then let me know that you still don't vote for me, like you are requesting a non-aggression-pact. I was staying on you, but gave the arguments that you are a floundering newbie some thought. And then superdeath happened and that was good enough reason to go there for now. Nothing what you posted cleared you in my books though.

Superdeath’s actions have been anti-town. The persona fits with the SD I know from Civ, but yes, his comments haven’t helped town.

Here’s your attack:

Are you effing me? What is that exchange?

1. superdeath votes me, no reason given
2. Rowain questions it, no explanation given, votes Rowain
3. Lewwyn chimes in with disgust, no vote tough
4. Commodore chimes in, with a joke, no vote again
5. superdeath still doesn't explain anything and reroutes his vote AGAIN, and again with no explanation

And none of you put at least a bit of pressure on him?

superdeath
I would like to get an explanation. Why did you vote me? Why did you vote Rowain? Why did you vote GKC?
And I would like to know from Lew and Commodore why they don't pressure him at all, but try to give him an easy out?

I actually have no problem with your argument here. Just note two things: it’s time to knife a newbie, but we also need to throw suspicion on some veteran bystanders.

And again: You even agree with my vote, but then try to make it appear as if I did something wrong for voting a newbie (even though you say yourself it is warranted) and not getting tunnel-vision but trying to see what else happened.

You know, we most definitely have more than 1 wolf so of course I will also consider what others did. Especially as I believe my observations are pretty spot on and helpful, maybe not today but later on.

But there’s a third knife-able newbie who hasn’t even drawn a glance from you. GKC’s been very suspicious, but when it comes time to talk about him, the actual newbie doesn’t get knifed, instead you go in on the vets.

I found that whole post of your [i.e. Pindicator] scummy to be honest, but this part is what gets me. You lay out in the first part very well why his behaviour reeks of wolfness (not being interested why he is being targeted, because he himself knows that they are right), but then you turn around and basically state "oh, you really sounded like a wolf, but you are new"... But I miss the explanation how newness has anything to do with being uninterested in why others target you?

Similarly, responding to Gaspar:

<snip>

Much text that does not say much though. We have gone over this arguments in the old games already so often and why giving players a pass just because they are (or pretend to be) new, isn't really doing much for town. Pressuring players, no matter how long they play, helps, at least to understand how they play, how they react. Especially later on that is important.

You’re looking for a newbie to lynch and are happy to ride the bus on me or Superdeath (ride, not drive both times). But GKC gets the kid gloves.

So, it is bad that I call out the vets, but it is also bad that I call out the newbies? But it is also bad that I don't call out the newbies? Can't win with that one.

What I see is just the same thing, repeated and repeated and repeated: You are not analyzing anything I actually did or wrote, you are adding, twisting and interpreting freely.

I don't like superdeaths play and still want an explanation, but right now if I had to decide whom to lynch today:

naufragar

Read a post like this. This is not banter. I'm trying to help you out here SD, but every post is digging you deeper in the eyes of players who want a quick lynch.

Again, I think lynching you is a low-information move, but it's the easiest thing to do.

[Gaspar]

I read most of today in and out of a hellish workday so I'll do a day 1.5 re-read before I go to bed but after a skim read...

Serdoa feels a lot more townish though I don't agree with much he's said.

I don't like most of what Commodore has said today either, but it feels more earnest than yesterday.

Every time Cyneheard posts, immediately after I say, I wonder if anyone is going to call out how scummy that post is? And nobody does.

I have no read on superdeath. I'm not sure superdeath has a read on superdeath.

I worry we have chased nauf away, which really isn't good even if he's scum.

Meiz sounds like Meiz. Missed you buddy. I don't have an alignment read.

I'm suspicious of scooter but I think that's because he's always scum so I don't even remember what a town scooter sounds like. There's a vague aggression that is present throughout though.

I remembered that Rowain 1. always dies early and 2. always thinks I'm scum. I'm going to give him a re-read before I make any conclusions.

WTFRU Bob?

I'll save any further thoughts for after I've eaten dinner.