WW 46: Wolves Return to Realms Beyond

[scooter]

Cyneheard who do you suspect beyond SD? Who else would you vote for?

I would also like to hear this. SD seems like low-hanging fruit. Cyneheard, who do you have strong feelings about one way or another and more importantly why?

Rowain already covered for me (which is wolfy behavior in-of itself, though not enough for me to change my vote, but my impression of Lewwyn hasn't improved.  I think he's joining easy bandwagons and spamming the thread with gobs of low-quality filler, banter, and analysis that boils down to "I think X is a wolf!  What say you???"  

I think that's a gross oversimplification and lazy smear. Bandwagons create pressure and they create shifts and movement, there is no way to esatblish patterns or discern differences between people without movement of votes and engaging people. The amount of analysis and actual thoughts about what I think and what I see is way over any filler posts. Additionally banter has purpose as well. Drawing people into conversation is not trivial. And your simplification of "I think X is a wolf! What say you?" Is pretty much the goal of the game and what every villager should be doing.

Straight up broad, low quality weak sauce.  

I think Bobchilingworth is a wolf guys. What do you think?

Yeah this reply from Bob was odd and has me happy to continue keeping my vote on him. I don't get too wound up about people disappearing for awhile because that's life, but I do expect when you do make an appearance to like... understand the basics of the game that he's probably played a dozen times here?


Bob, I still have no idea what you think of anyone. Other than Lewwyn who you just seem upset is going at you, who do you feel strongly about?

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

I've read through the additional 7 pages since I posted yesterday. Not going to give a big list again, but I want to write some quick impressions.

Reading through the thread, by far most of my impressions are of Lewwyn. He's going to jump on me for not correcting my mistaken claim that he voted for Cyneheard, but as a pre-emptive defense it's on my to-do list. Like Bob, I also have a job during the day, and I've already spent my first hour after work combing through the thread to catch up to where I was yesterday evening. I'll have time to go post hunting later, perhaps. Now, maybe this isn't hte level of engagement you need from a villager, but, well, it's the level of engagement I can offer. You also wont' find me posting long, detailed game reports in my PBEMs, either, right now. ; Life is busy at the start of the school year. Especially if you just moved across hemispheres! 

Anyway, back to Lewwyn. I get a lot of posts from him, and he does rapidly switch from focus to focus. In the last 24 hours, he's gone after me for my LIST, for El Grillo for posting "questions" without too much thought behind them, pressured SD, liked Meiz and endorsed him utterly, excused himself not voting for Gaspar (needs more time), doesn't like Adrien absent, doesn't like Cyneheard, swapped off El Grillo, said nauf was wolfy, voted Bob...

Okay, not gonna lie, when I started this list, I was going to say Lewwyn felt strongly scummy to me, like the running dog the other wolves sent out to draw some of the heat. But I recognize now that he has drawn a lot of discussion and information out, and honestly that's revising me in favor of town. 

Superdeath also seemed mostly genuine in his defense. He read like authentic superdeath, and, frankly, from having read his game reports, guys, I think superdeath is an honest guy. He doesn't really have it in him to deceive (boy will my face be red when he's a wolf). So I believe him. 

I don't like the bandwagon on Bob for being "too quiet." The sheer flood of posts makes it very difficult for me to meaningfully contribute, because there's just too much information to process and sort through. It takes me over an hour to read everything and catch up for one post - which sucks up most of my freetime for the day and keeps me from posting more. Bob's defense is exactly the one I would ahve made, and y'all could have justly accused me for the same reasons you did him. I guess I get a pass because it's my first game at RB? Anyway, I get the need to shake people out and get posts for info, but Bob's done the same thing I have and I'm not a werewolf, so...

 Most of the wolves have thrown up enough chaff that I'm a bit confused at the moment. I get town reads on El Grillo, because I agree with most of his reasoning. I also like scooter and pindicator, and lean town on Rowain. Scum reads right now? I feel that one of GKC or Nauf is. I'm not sure about Serdoa, either - could see him and GKC aligned, as nauf charges. I don't like the rapid anti-Bob bandwagon that developed, which has hurt Gaspar and Commodore in my estimation. 

Cyneheard has been quiet, though. Yesterday he said he had to work, like many of us, and voted pindicator for being too quick to bandwagon GKC/nauf. Today, he's pointed out adrien was quiet, said Lewwyn was tough to understand (I agree! But I think I get it now), and then kept his vote on SD because the "just joking" defense wasn't strong enough. 

Long story short, this post is full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. I've tried to be open about my thoughts, so that when I die there's a bit of breadcrumbs, but I've also dramatically revised lots of my werewolf suspicions downwards. I can see how many players are either town-helpful OR have good excuses (Bob, Cyne, Charriu, me, all have jobs and difficulty posting a lot). 

Right now, I'm going to keep my vote on superdeath. My reasoning is that I don't know who I'd better park it on. I dont' think superdeath is the best possible lynch, I just think he's the least likely to blow up in our faces at the moment. I want to vote for someone better, but who that is? I dunno. Need to be convinced. I have until 11 tomorrow morning...but I teach all morning. So I need to figure it out tonight. For now, I leave my vote there.

[Cyneheard]

Beyond the vote post for Superdeath. The follow up post:

Trying to keep this to the point.

Not lynching = just gives the wolves more time to kill people, so yes lynches do need to happen.

So if all you're doing is joking around, but not then trying to help find scum? That's not helpful, which is why I called it out and moved my vote.

It's been over a day, so there's plenty more to dig through, and I know I need to do this more myself.

This is not a fair game. All of the posts are true, especially the lies. Everyone is suspicious, and everyone is a suspect.

I think the WW platitudes at the end are particularly interesting because its like he's sorry for lynching SD who he knows is innocent? Very possible. In any case I think Cyneheard is twisting SD a bit. SD was joking early on and explaining that now. Cyneheard is taking him to task NOW for actions that happened earlier, but then in his tone he's not really giving SD a chance to come back. There's a lot of finality and judgement here that feels like an over reaction or an attempt to make it clear this is what has to happen. Let's wax poetic and say it is what it is!

But its not what it is and we can do better. This is like trying to shut down the debate before the end.

Superdeath's response was, in essence "I was joking then, but other than that I've got nothing, are you happy now?" - it was the I've got nothing else part that got to me. He's either being a wolf who decided to hide rather than contribute, or a confused villager who needs to contribute. Voting was to turn up the heat because that response was still him hiding from the job.

Was my second post with platitudes? Uh, yeah? If he's being earnest, then the platitudes might actually be helpful because he's struggling to understand the point of day 1 - trying a different way to explain things because obviously it wasn't working whether because he's not getting it or he's choosing not to get it.

Who do I have a read on? It's hard because there's been a lot of quiet people, and I'm trying to be respectful of time outside the game too.

Obviously willing to go back to pind, whose early wagoning felt off to me and I haven't seen much from him since.

We've got a few people who really haven't said much today. And Bob's barely added anything this evening except a too-earnest "lynch me if you will" that we've all noticed.

Serdoa and Rowain are both people I always struggle to read. I'm not seeing anything different about them from what I seem to remember. Lewwyn, you're as usual flooding the boards with everything and I think on balance it's helpful.

Gaspar's tunneled on me a bit, and when he has he's basically just said "you're suspicious because you are" and that's it, hard for me to be objective.

I'm trying to understand why I'm suspicious at the same time as GKC when we're trying to tell superdeath the same thing. The biggest difference is that I moved my vote to SD but GKC explicitly didn't change his - so what? Every post is an opportunity to change a vote.

[Gaspar]

Naufragar, you talk about separating your question for Serdoa from a vote on him, and perhaps that makes sense in the context of One Night Ultimate Werewolf (a game I personally haven't played, but it sounds like you only get one day lynch vote per game?), but in a forum game where your vote is all the leverage you have, you can see why it drew all this attention.

Cyneheard, you've been quiet since your random vote on scooter at the beginning. What do you think about the interactions between naufragar/Serdoa/Lewwyn, and on the reasoning of pindicator and Commodore starting a second wagon on GKC?

That's my work schedule coming into play. Lunch being when this started was great, but had to focus on work after that. I don't know how much time I'll get during weekday work hours.

We've had One Night Werewolf on the forum, and votes moved around during the day IIRC, so that's not a great presumption El Grillo on naufr's behalf, although in person it might work differently.

I picked scooter because he's someone I know better, so I figured I'd have a chance to get a little more information out of him than someone else initially, but then wagons went off in other directions because GKC and naufragar are absolutely all over the place. The wagons on them almost make too much sense - that they're obviously being careless so let's get them because it's too easy! I want to hear more from Rowain and pindicator about why they went for their wagons.

Lewwyn's point was that Serdoa is just being Serdoa, which I know isn't all that helpful for people who don't remember him that well. Especially since the self-vote was the first post, I think starting the day with obvious nonsense to get a reaction makes sense. That's not my style but I get it - and I WANT my reunion game to start with some silliness in the first few minutes. It's not like we had anything more to go on.

Trying to keep this to the point.

Not lynching = just gives the wolves more time to kill people, so yes lynches do need to happen.

So if all you're doing is joking around, but not then trying to help find scum? That's not helpful, which is why I called it out and moved my vote.

It's been over a day, so there's plenty more to dig through, and I know I need to do this more myself.

This is not a fair game. All of the posts are true, especially the lies. Everyone is suspicious, and everyone is a suspect.

These are the two posts, I'm referring to Cyneheard, if you want the opportunity to retort. I generally find anyone, particularly experienced players, who make excuses for their lack of participation after little or no pressure, suspicious. Then you didn't say much of anything afterwards. It felt like the purpose of the post was to excuse your lack of contribution.

The second post, as Lewwyn suggests, seemed almost apologetic for your vote and I always find that suspicious, particularly when we're still more than half a day away from a lynch.

So, that, combined with no real helpful contribution to offset, is why I'm voting for you right now. By all means, change my mind.

[Lewwyn]

Technically I'm working full time, I'm just teaching online 16 hours a week at my University, but only in the mornings and evenings, leaving my whole day open. In fact I start class in a bout 10 minutes again. It's why I'm posting so much to be frank. Just in case anyone was curious.

I'm not buying your response here Bob:

I think Cyne's posts are very similar to what I'd write for day one if compelled to produce a few more than what I already have.  The idea 48 hours of joke votes, spam, and random finger pointing on day one are going to catch a wolf in the act is preposterous based on a decade of experience on this forum, and you know it.  It's highly unlikely for the scum to stumble when there's zero votes to defend or night actions to gather intelligence from.  What's important is determining how the inevitable bandwagon on Day 1's lynch target formed- if the victim is village, who pushed hard for it (and why), and who jumped on easy win for the scum.  If the victim is scum, then who tried to save them, or bandwagoned when the victim was clearly doomed anyway for cheap village cred.  Obviously also critical is reading the night action(s), particularly why certain players stood out enough to the scum to whack, though generally there won't be sufficient intel to help the village until at least a couple nights in.  


Again, you know all this.  Constantly pointing at random people for no little-to-no reason isn't aberrant RB Day One behavior, but it is common scum play, because it works; it puts whoever does it in the driver's seat, keeps them off the defense, gives them an enormous amount of posts which are also a pain to sort through for anyone wanting to analyze their content, and convinces villagers who have trouble tracking the game on their own that it's important to keep them around.  It doesn't actually help the village much at all.

You started to answer my question about Cyne, but you never really did. In fact your answer to the question was the first sentence and then a rant about... I guess me? Again you continue with this narrative that these 48 hours have been a joke fest, spam and random finger pointing when in fact joke votes only occurred for about an hour before things began to get serious. Speaking for myself any finger pointing has been in earnest with careful deliberation if carried out with an upbeat tone. Your derision is duly noted and not constructive in the slightest. I mean the only thing you've said is we'll be sorry if we lynch you and I'm scummy. I don't think its too much to ask for you to try a bit.


Now its my turn to go to my job

[GeneralKilCavalry]

Was my second post with platitudes? Uh, yeah? If he's being earnest, then the platitudes might actually be helpful because he's struggling to understand the point of day 1 - trying a different way to explain things because obviously it wasn't working whether because he's not getting it or he's choosing not to get it.

Who do I have a read on? It's hard because there's been a lot of quiet people, and I'm trying to be respectful of time outside the game too.

Obviously willing to go back to pind, whose early wagoning felt off to me and I haven't seen much from him since.

We've got a few people who really haven't said much today. And Bob's barely added anything this evening except a too-earnest "lynch me if you will" that we've all noticed.

Serdoa and Rowain are both people I always struggle to read. I'm not seeing anything different about them from what I seem to remember. Lewwyn, you're as usual flooding the boards with everything and I think on balance it's helpful.

Gaspar's tunneled on me a bit, and when he has he's basically just said "you're suspicious because you are" and that's it, hard for me to be objective.

I'm trying to understand why I'm suspicious at the same time as GKC when we're trying to tell superdeath the same thing. The biggest difference is that I moved my vote to SD but GKC explicitly didn't change his - so what? Every post is an opportunity to change a vote.

You keep saying quiet people quiet people, maybe I'm mistaken, but there's been a great amount of activity in this thread, almost hard to keep up, and everyone has at least 7 posts. That's enough to make even a vague judgement on anyone, and I don't understand your repeating of this line.

I disagree Gaspar, the post wasn't really apolegetic in tone, it just seems a bit strange given Cyneheard's own silence/parrotting earlier in post 10, 70.

Also, the "love-fest" between Gaspar and Lewwyn continues? I don't like this aggression against cyne without detailed reasoning - perhaps I'm too noob to understand

Also, Cyne, with so many votes on SD, why do you feel the need to put a further vote on him? Any other avenues you wish to pursue?

[Cyneheard]

Naufragar, you talk about separating your question for Serdoa from a vote on him, and perhaps that makes sense in the context of One Night Ultimate Werewolf (a game I personally haven't played, but it sounds like you only get one day lynch vote per game?), but in a forum game where your vote is all the leverage you have, you can see why it drew all this attention.

Cyneheard, you've been quiet since your random vote on scooter at the beginning. What do you think about the interactions between naufragar/Serdoa/Lewwyn, and on the reasoning of pindicator and Commodore starting a second wagon on GKC?

That's my work schedule coming into play. Lunch being when this started was great, but had to focus on work after that. I don't know how much time I'll get during weekday work hours.

We've had One Night Werewolf on the forum, and votes moved around during the day IIRC, so that's not a great presumption El Grillo on naufr's behalf, although in person it might work differently.

I picked scooter because he's someone I know better, so I figured I'd have a chance to get a little more information out of him than someone else initially, but then wagons went off in other directions because GKC and naufragar are absolutely all over the place. The wagons on them almost make too much sense - that they're obviously being careless so let's get them because it's too easy! I want to hear more from Rowain and pindicator about why they went for their wagons.

Lewwyn's point was that Serdoa is just being Serdoa, which I know isn't all that helpful for people who don't remember him that well. Especially since the self-vote was the first post, I think starting the day with obvious nonsense to get a reaction makes sense. That's not my style but I get it - and I WANT my reunion game to start with some silliness in the first few minutes. It's not like we had anything more to go on.

Trying to keep this to the point.

Not lynching = just gives the wolves more time to kill people, so yes lynches do need to happen.

So if all you're doing is joking around, but not then trying to help find scum? That's not helpful, which is why I called it out and moved my vote.

It's been over a day, so there's plenty more to dig through, and I know I need to do this more myself.

This is not a fair game. All of the posts are true, especially the lies. Everyone is suspicious, and everyone is a suspect.

These are the two posts, I'm referring to Cyneheard, if you want the opportunity to retort.  I generally find anyone, particularly experienced players, who make excuses for their lack of participation after little or no pressure, suspicious.  Then you didn't say much of anything afterwards.  It felt like the purpose of the post was to excuse your lack of contribution.

The second post, as Lewwyn suggests, seemed almost apologetic for your vote and I always find that suspicious, particularly when we're still more than half a day away from a lynch.

So, that, combined with no real helpful contribution to offset, is why I'm voting for you right now.  By all means, change my mind.

RB's games have a tendency to be such an overwhelming time suck. I was trying to push back at that because El Grillo was trying to say that me not spending two hours in the middle of the day on WW was suspicious - I thought it was ridiculous, so I called it out and tried to make the point that life exists outside WW. I'm not trying to turn the game into "bare our personal schedules in too much detail" because that's not healthy for anyone. His other questions seemed fair so I responded to them.

For the second post:
I feel like I'm just repeating myself. SD was being defensive about his lack of contributions. So I put my vote on him because that's an awful attitude, either a scum tell or an awful villager approach to the game. I was expecting him to actually go somewhere after that, but thought he needed a prod. The prod got him defensive about the entire game concept - so to better see where it went I did take what he said at face value - so yes it can seem apologetic because that's what he's trying to sell. I've not seen anything from him since.

1) He's being a wolf who just doesn't want to contribute anything. In which case I'm not helping things by trying to break it down for him, but let's be real, someone else likely would be.
2) He's being an earnest confused villager - I understand the confusion, and he needs some guidance in how to explain himself and get out of this. But he's not trying to get himself out of it.

I'm also just feeling overwhelmed by the game, definitely regretting signing up. I need my evenings to be a break from the stress of everything that is, well, everything, and this isn't it.

[superdeath]

For the second post:
I feel like I'm just repeating myself. SD was being defensive about his lack of contributions. So I put my vote on him because that's an awful attitude, either a scum tell or an awful villager approach to the game. I was expecting him to actually go somewhere after that, but thought he needed a prod. The prod got him defensive about the entire game concept - so to better see where it went I did take what he said at face value - so yes it can seem apologetic because that's what he's trying to sell. I've not seen anything from him since.

1) He's being a wolf who just doesn't want to contribute anything. In which case I'm not helping things by trying to break it down for him, but let's be real, someone else likely would be.
2) He's being an earnest confused villager - I understand the confusion, and he needs some guidance in how to explain himself and get out of this. But he's not trying to get himself out of it.

I'm also just feeling overwhelmed by the game, definitely regretting signing up. I need my evenings to be a break from the stress of everything that is, well, everything, and this isn't it.

Feel like as a newbie that hasnt played a game like this ( with actual chatting and not just basically a voting cycle and night cycle ) i fall much more in line with your #2 point. If i was a wolf/mafia wouldnt my fellow wolves ect be rather keen to coach me and not continue to let me make a fool outta myself?

Until Day 2 it just seems hard to agree to lynch someone as there isnt really evidence. Although i will say, Bob  with the whole "lynch me if you will" kinda stands out and makes me recall several mafia games on sc2 that ended up with at least an Arsonist if not Mafia lynch whenever that line got thrown out there.

[Commodore]

Lots of despair around here as I head to bed; Bob isn't making me regret voting for him with his...defense? The expected grumpy grousing isn't going to sway anyone. Cyneheard is responding very strongly to what looks like a single vote. And Superdeath's defense...ain't much, although it seemed both sincere (null tell) and uncoached (mild village tell).

Probably won't be posting until nearer to the deadline (14-month-old may have plans otherwise), but right now Bob seems the best vote of the three.

[GeneralKilCavalry]

For the second post:
I feel like I'm just repeating myself. SD was being defensive about his lack of contributions. So I put my vote on him because that's an awful attitude, either a scum tell or an awful villager approach to the game. I was expecting him to actually go somewhere after that, but thought he needed a prod. The prod got him defensive about the entire game concept - so to better see where it went I did take what he said at face value - so yes it can seem apologetic because that's what he's trying to sell. I've not seen anything from him since.

1) He's being a wolf who just doesn't want to contribute anything. In which case I'm not helping things by trying to break it down for him, but let's be real, someone else likely would be.
2) He's being an earnest confused villager - I understand the confusion, and he needs some guidance in how to explain himself and get out of this. But he's not trying to get himself out of it.

I'm also just feeling overwhelmed by the game, definitely regretting signing up. I need my evenings to be a break from the stress of everything that is, well, everything, and this isn't it.

Feel like as a newbie that hasnt played a game like this ( with actual chatting and not just basically a voting cycle and night cycle ) i fall much more in line with your #2 point. If i was a wolf/mafia wouldnt my fellow wolves ect be rather keen to coach me and not continue to let me make a fool outta myself?

No that's totally not true. Wolves don't want weakness in their pack, and getting rid of a wolf shows their "townyness". It's a very common trick.