That's not really what Lewwyn wrote though, GKC. It's a subtle difference (and was I not part of that exchange and remembered, I would probably not even look for it), but Lewwyn wrote:
"Are you trying to be an opportunistic wolf nauf? Buddy to Serdoa and cast doubt on Rowain and I?"
nauf does the following:
a) change "buddy to" to "buddy with"
b) change "cast doubt on" to "swing on"
That might be genuine rephrasing, but it changes the tone and meaning of what Lewwyn wrote. Lewwyn asked if naufragar is trying to befriend me (not if he is working together with me) and he asked if he tries to paint Lewwyn and Rowain in a bad light (but not if he tries to instigate votes on them).
Lewwyn accused nauf of trying to befriend me as an opportunistic wolf-ploy (because he can do so while casting doubt at Lew and Rowain), nauf makes it sound like he is accused of working together with me in order to get Lew or Rowain lynched. That's a difference.
As for the actual exchange: naufs defense was your quoted post, which is basically some meta-stuff and then "you accuse me of x, I said the opposite". But he said exactly what Lewwyn accused him of. He just pre-faced it with "I hate that I say this." (see that post below if you are curious). That's again changing what happened, but just enough that on a quick re-read you might not even notice.
And that is what I try to point out the whole time, it is just extremely hard for me to do, as I have to translate my thoughts first. nauf does that all the time, he changes what was written or the obvious meaning that was given, but just slightly enough that it is hard to explain how meaning or writing was altered without writing a wall of text that probably no one wants to read.
(September 3rd, 2020, 10:12)Lewwyn Wrote:
(September 3rd, 2020, 10:05)naufragar Wrote: I hate that I'm saying this, but Serdoa's thought process was exactly mine.
(September 3rd, 2020, 09:39)Serdoa Wrote: To clarify why I asked: I didn't understand that exchange. Lewwyns post did not in any way indicate to me that he saw them both as wolf-buddies, but just as two players that both are acting in an anti-town way. Rowain voting him with the statement "you believe that both are wolves" was surprising me therefore, as for me that indicates a wolf-pack not just a wolf-lean on both. Lewwyn not jumping at that surprised me even more, as I would have thought that a gross misrepresentation of what he wrote.
I literally whistled aloud when I read Rowain. It seemed like a misread, maybe based on Lewwyn's first sentence, at a time when the game was distilling into a litmus test of voters between Bob and Cyne. Then I got whiplash, because Lewwyn didn't call it a misread.
I didn't call it out. I laughed at it because it was just so like village Rowain. Wolf Rowain is much quieter for starters. Second village Rowain attacks out at everyone and often at the people he trusted earlier because he's very distrusting. If anything the whole exchange just solidfied I'm dealing with village Rowain.
Are you trying to be an opportunistic wolf nauf? Buddy to Serdoa and cast doubt on Rowain and I? I can't tell because you're still new. But Rowain voting for me to see who would bite and then voting for them wouldn't be out of Rowain's wheelhouse too.
I don't like meta-posts. I won't go through all of them (because frankly I want to finally play Wasteland 3 which I bought over a week ago and have since not even opened once), I just want to make a general remark and hopefully we can be done with it then:
thrawn left the game because it was overwhelming and more than he wanted to take care of. None of that gives an indication to his role. You can argue that he was town, because as wolf, he would not want to let is buddies hanging, by not fully committing to the game. You can as well argue that he was wolf, because as wolf, he would feel he would let his buddies hanging, if he didn't fully commit to the game.
It really makes no sense at all, every argument that revolves around what a player we don't know much of, as he basically had no input in this thread, was feeling and towards whom is flawed to begin with. Just evaluate players on their input and votes.
My thoughts Adrien - pindi:
pindi highlighted Adrien'S voting thereby binding cyneheard + Adrien + Comm. Now this can be 2 things) pindi is a genius and really hit the scum hard. Adrien has done a similar voting-pattern in the past (bringing up others when a wolfbuddy was in danger) or b) pindi is scum tying a wolf (Cynehear) with 2 villagers. In that it to note that pindi voted for Adrien and not Cyneheard. What makes me stop from jumping on the pindi is a wolf-train is twofold: He did push for Adrien immediately today which is dangerous for a wolf and the attack from Meiz. My distrust of Meiz you can read further up.
scooter
As Lewwyn noted the jump from What is the case against Adrien to lynch Adrien together with the (oh I looked at the wrong tally )-excuse does look scummy. Werewolf is a game that gets under your skin especially if you are a wolf.
naufragar - Serdoa: While biting in 1 target and never let lose is a Serdoa-trademark I find the continuing exchange between those 2 rather detrimental for town. So much that I wonder if the contentious exchange isn't used as a cover for 2 wolves: Making lot of posts looking active while neither runs the risk to get lynched. Serdoa did make a thorough read-through of Adrien with the conclusion
(September 3rd, 2020, 10:56)Serdoa Wrote: I don't have time left for the rest. Conclusion: That all does not look too good, low content, contradictions...
but today he returned to his preferred chewing-toy
SD: Your today-vote looks bad to me. Think about it. If CMF is a wolf it would mean that 2 wolves were sitting on a useless vote while 1 of them was near the gallows. I guess this can happen (albeit I don't believe it) but if it happened the other 2 (assuming a 4 wolf setup) were most likely located on Bob. So SD whom of Commodore,scooter,GKC,Adrien are the scumbuddies of Cyneheard and CMF and why. Please elaborate.
Lewwyn : Lewwyn can alsways be a wolf and t would fit with his excitement. Also he is nice and friendly to me and that does look like a budding up. Usually I would say a wolf Lewwyn fits very well with a Gaspar night-kill. Alas Gaspar had pushed a wolf hard and might have been onto another (he listed pindi as number 2 suspect) so that kill is a nulltell.
(September 5th, 2020, 02:44)Rowain Wrote: Lewwyn : Usually I would say a wolf Lewwyn fits very well with a Gaspar night-kill. Alas Gaspar had pushed a wolf hard and might have been onto another (he listed pindi as number 2 suspect) so that kill is a nulltell.
This is my conclusion as well. I think Gaspar's early push on Cyneheard alone meant that he'd be one of the clear night targets. As for Lewwyn, I don't think he's doing a wolf gambit with his end of night post regardign Gaspar. I think his play has fit well how he plays as town, erratic, vote jumping, pushing. Not seeing the malicious intent behind his psots which I've seen on his scum games.
(September 5th, 2020, 02:44)Rowain Wrote: SD: Your today-vote looks bad to me. Think about it. If CMF is a wolf it would mean that 2 wolves were sitting on a useless vote while 1 of them was near the gallows. I guess this can happen (albeit I don't believe it) but if it happened the other 2 (assuming a 4 wolf setup) were most likely located on Bob. So SD whom of Commodore,scooter,GKC,Adrien are the scumbuddies of Cyneheard and CMF and why. Please elaborate.
What difference would 1 wolf votes vs 2 wolf votes on a useless vote be?
I think that in a 4 wolf setup ( i think it would be closer to 2-3 wolves unless its meant to be a quick game ) they would be more likely to have the majority still vote for the same lynch target, and maybe have one outlier? Well shoot now ive convinced myself not to vote for CMF.
Out of Commodore, scooter, GKC and Adrien? Id lean Commodore based on the early "protective-ness" that i saw. Ill have to read more for him and the others to have a more clear vote.
"Superdeath seems to have acquired a rep for aggression somehow. In this game that's going to help us because he's going to go to the negotiating table with twitchy eyes and slightly too wide a grin and terrify the neighbors into favorable border agreements, one-sided tech deals and staggered NAPs."
-Old Harry. PB48.
(September 5th, 2020, 02:44)Rowain Wrote: SD: Your today-vote looks bad to me. Think about it. If CMF is a wolf it would mean that 2 wolves were sitting on a useless vote while 1 of them was near the gallows. I guess this can happen (albeit I don't believe it) but if it happened the other 2 (assuming a 4 wolf setup) were most likely located on Bob. So SD whom of Commodore,scooter,GKC,Adrien are the scumbuddies of Cyneheard and CMF and why. Please elaborate.
What difference would 1 wolf votes vs 2 wolf votes on a useless vote be?
The difference would be that at the same time 1 wolf was in danger of getting lynched. And in that case you can bet that the other 2 wolves are feeling unhappy.
Btw I don't want you to only focuse on those 4. Feel free to give your reads/feelings about others too. I don't want you to simply say: CMF is wolf and that's it for day 2.
(September 5th, 2020, 02:44)Rowain Wrote: naufragar - Serdoa: While biting in 1 target and never let lose is a Serdoa-trademark I find the continuing exchange between those 2 rather detrimental for town. So much that I wonder if the contentious exchange isn't used as a cover for 2 wolves: Making lot of posts looking active while neither runs the risk to get lynched. Serdoa did make a thorough read-through of Adrien with the conclusion
(September 3rd, 2020, 10:56)Serdoa Wrote: I don't have time left for the rest. Conclusion: That all does not look too good, low content, contradictions...
but today he returned to his preferred chewing-toy
Yes, I have posted about naufragar today, but I believe not without reason. I've not simply gone "Oh, I was suspicious of you yesterday, lets jump back to you" like I feel others did today with their suspects, but with clearly laying out what I find suspicious about his newer posts. If you disagree with my conclusions, please let me know, otherwise this feels to me like I am unfairly attacked for actually offering thoughts. I am not responsible for who is making scummy posts and if naufragar is doing that all the time, should I ignore it? Should I go "Oh well, a wolf would never do that" as some have alluded to in their posts on Day 1 ("nauf is too scummy.") I don't buy into these statements; novice, zakalwe, I myself, Lewwyn, we all have shown that "Wolfs would never do that" is not a helpful line of reasoning and seldom holds true.
Also, what am I to do if I see stuff I find questionable than point it out? I did that yesterday too and not just about naufragar but about several players.
And in that vein, might I ask: Do you disagree with the actual points I brought up about naufragar? Would you support a vote on him or would you be against and why?
My opinion on the night's death are unfortunately not that telling. El Grillo hid behind Gaspar, who was killed by the wolves (I imagine for being suspicious of Cyneheard). A vig (Meiz ? Serdoa ?) shot Cyneheard to advance the game.
Lewwyn makes a serious attack (#254) due to Cyneheard's easy vote on SD. I like his reasoning. Continues on #256, #259, #268, #318, #328. He did have the train on Adrien but I find his day 1 actions against Cyne consistent and seriously pushing. I doubt this is a gambit to kill a wolf partner. Feeling most town from the players left.
I'm also feeling town on Serdoa's play so far. He votes Bob but immediately switches to Cyneheard (#304) and keeps it there. The initial Bob vote and then switching doesn't look like any wolf agenda to me. Nauf, what do you think? Did you re-read Serdoa's day 1 before making the accusation?
GKC doing analysis of Cyneheard (#255) (#279). I realize my accusation post (#294) reflected his thoughts. My question is, why were you not interested to going after Cyneheard as the day progressed? Instead you defended SD & voted Bob (#286), didn't buy Adrien train and preferred naufragatr -> bob -> Cyne lynch order (#376). Rereading th thread, I'm surprised how quiet you went on Cyne despite multitde of others giving good reasons to vote him, which seems to reflect your earlier thoughts on him.
Pindicator's first prod for Adrien (#271). On reread, it's a good prod because Adrien ignores the Cyneheard accusations. It can also be a buildup for a later attack, knowing Cyneheard's role already.
As for the actual push on Adrien (#290).
I do not worry the reasoning behind it itself (and I'm 100% sure that wolf-Pind is cabable of making a well reasoned attack). In fact I was the only voter against Adrien when he voted. I worry that his d1 play was very narrow, not taking a broader look on players (and I suspected Cyneheard basically for the same play here). I don't get the feeling Pind was really interested to push his earlier targets to get more information from them, and he ended up making a narrow attack against a "not-Cyneheard" - player. The vote timing works for wolf as well with Cyneheard really starting to pick up the heat at this point.
And so does Adrien's push for Bob while ignoring Cyneheard. I think both Pind and Adrien have equilavent Cyneheard save moves. This all comes down to Adrien's role though. When I think about wolf play, I'm imaging it to fit more for Pindicator's profile (my earlier take on this) than Adrien's play that surely gets him lynched. It's possible that Adrien is just bad at playing wolf, but my current bet is for the smarter wolfplay by Pind. Both his attack on Pind (one of his accusers) and self-saving vote on Bob are very self-centered. I can see that fitting for both roles. His play today should be very telling I think.
Minor thing, but I still find Pind's comment on the Bob train strange. (#290) I asked about it and he reponded here.
Was more interested to hear Lewwyn's take on it. "I was looking more for Lewwyn's thoughts on the Bob train because I remembered him nailing Bob in a past game and I wanted to get more of a read on Lewwyn. "
But he clearly says he's not feeling the Bob train, indicating the doesn't want to see Bob lynched. While not having any personal read from Bob. I don't understand how getting a read from Lewwyn has anything to do with this preference. I still can't get my head around on what he was going for here. Defending a potential to be villager lynch?
Rowain votes Cyneheard on post #299. But later switches his vote for Lewwyn #320. The vote change itself is suspicious, as it's pushing Cyne away from potential lynch targets. Can you explain how you viewed Lewwyn's play before your vote? Suspicious already? If so, why? Later switches his vote for Adrien. You were not ultimately interested on the Cyneheard votes despite the earlier small push, and I'd like to hear why.
The timing for Charriu's vote for Adrien #327 is potentially an attempt to save Cyneheard. Bob and Cyneheard are very even at this point, and he's gathered and quoted multiple players who've already suspected Adrien (so rallying for the cause). Did not comment furher at the end of the day.
Scooter, why no interest in lynching Cyneheard who had a similar play as Bob. I think you mentioned he had more content on his posts, but did you consider the content was crap?
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In this game that's going to help us because he's going to go to the negotiating table with twitchy eyes and slightly too wide a grin and terrify the neighbors into favorable border agreements, one-sided tech deals and staggered NAPs."