(September 4th, 2020, 22:41)Lewwyn Wrote: This is a pretty good comeback but its funny because this RB meta attacking RB meta. This feels like a vet wolf told nauf how to respond to me.
This is the most condescending crap I’ve read so far. All my plays that you think are sloppy you attribute to my own sloppiness. A play that you think is good can’t possibly be mine. Take a long walk off a short pier.
I make an observation (as I stated in your quote, I’m not trying to all-in as an argument). I thought the interaction between Rowain and you was weird. You explain yourself with reference to your deep insight into Rowain based on past games. Then you wonder if I was trying to be an "opportunistic wolf nauf? Buddy to Serdoa and cast doubt on Rowain and I?" [Quoted so Serdoa doesn’t accuse me of misrepresenting.] Serdoa had the same observation that I did, but then dropped it. I thought your original answer to Serdoa completely missed the point that Rowain made a misread, so I wanted to linger on it. I have three options: 1) say nothing 2) make the point without reference to Serdoa’s earlier mention 3) make the point while saying that I don’t swing town on Serdoa just because I share his observation. Both 2 and 3 you can attack me with being opportunistic and buddy to Serdoa. Which you do. I respond that I do in fact mean what I say. (I take it this is what people mean by WIFOM. My statement of something must in fact mean the exact opposite. Genius!) After saying I mean what I say, you respond, “Why you gotta be so scummy. Yes you "hated" doing it. That makes it feel more "genuine" and more impactful because you're stressing that you are going against your early reads. Its very good wolf rhetoric. You're just being a bit clumsy with it.” I reply with what you’ve quoted, restating my point and pointing out that your response is weak.
Strip out the rhetoric. I made a point. You answered it weakly. I told you that you answered it weakly. You think my response is good and so out of character it must be from wolf coaching. You don’t say this when I respond. You wait until you can pile in with GKC. This is condescending as all hell. I’ve been focused on a point. You make one bad actual response “I know Rowain from past games.” And the rest of your time is devoted to interrogating my motives, first as an “opportunistic wolf” then using “very good wolf rhetoric. You’re just being a bit clumsy with it” to “This is a pretty good comeback but its funny because this RB meta attacking RB meta. This feels like a vet wolf told nauf how to respond to me.” I think you personally enjoy interrogating tone, so on the malice/ignorance coinflip, I still have you coming up ignorance.
In the spoiler, I’ve put our exchange. Folks can tell me if I’m misrepresenting.
(September 3rd, 2020, 10:05)naufragar Wrote: I hate that I'm saying this, but Serdoa's thought process was exactly mine.
(September 3rd, 2020, 09:39)Serdoa Wrote: To clarify why I asked: I didn't understand that exchange. Lewwyns post did not in any way indicate to me that he saw them both as wolf-buddies, but just as two players that both are acting in an anti-town way. Rowain voting him with the statement "you believe that both are wolves" was surprising me therefore, as for me that indicates a wolf-pack not just a wolf-lean on both. Lewwyn not jumping at that surprised me even more, as I would have thought that a gross misrepresentation of what he wrote.
I literally whistled aloud when I read Rowain. It seemed like a misread, maybe based on Lewwyn's first sentence, at a time when the game was distilling into a litmus test of voters between Bob and Cyne. Then I got whiplash, because Lewwyn didn't call it a misread.
(September 3rd, 2020, 10:12)Lewwyn Wrote: I didn't call it out. I laughed at it because it was just so like village Rowain. Wolf Rowain is much quieter for starters. Second village Rowain attacks out at everyone and often at the people he trusted earlier because he's very distrusting. If anything the whole exchange just solidfied I'm dealing with village Rowain.
Are you trying to be an opportunistic wolf nauf? Buddy to Serdoa and cast doubt on Rowain and I? I can't tell because you're still new. But Rowain voting for me to see who would bite and then voting for them wouldn't be out of Rowain's wheelhouse too.
(September 3rd, 2020, 10:17)naufragar Wrote: No. I said I hated saying it. Hated that I'd be giving Serdoa credit, hated that I would look to be reversing course. I read the exchange and saw that Serdoa already posted about it and backed off. I wanted to linger on it for a minute more.
(September 3rd, 2020, 10:26)Lewwyn Wrote: Why you gotta be so scummy. Yes you "hated" doing it. That makes it feel more "genuine" and more impactful because you're stressing that you are going against your early reads. Its very good wolf rhetoric. You're just being a bit clumsy with it.
Seriously I'm torn between Adrien, Nauf and Cyne now.
(September 3rd, 2020, 10:37)naufragar Wrote: Lewwyn, I don’t want to blow the you-Rowain molehill into a mountain, but honestly, I feel like venting. As far as I can tell, the RB meta is about past history and “tone,” which is completely crazy to me. My argument, although that’s even too strong a word, was this:
Rowain, after a series of questions that I thought were good and based on good reads, makes a pretty glaring misread. He does this after, as I said in my post where I voted for Cyneheard, I was hoping to see what happened to the bus on Bob. He moves away from Cyne to you, which puts Bob back in the lead.
All that is eyebrow raising, but you don’t call him out, so Serdoa and I, and maybe others, find that strange. You claim that you laugh at him instead of calling him out, but when questioned by Serdoa, you don’t call it a misread. You explain that it was a misread, but the aggression you’ve displayed this game is absent. I was surprised by Rowain, confused by you.
Nothing in the above is based on nebulous tone or past history.
You come back at me with 1) some unverifiable stories about the good old days and how you can read people that way and 2) you wonder if I’m trying to buddy up with Serdoa and swing on you and Rowain, despite me saying the exact opposite. “Yes you "hated" doing it. That makes it feel more "genuine" and more impactful because you're stressing that you are going against your early reads.” This is tone BS. I laid out what I thought was weird. You don’t like that I didn’t do it in an appropriate voice.
(September 4th, 2020, 22:41)Lewwyn Wrote: Hey GKC, This post is one I've been holding in my mind:
This is a pretty good comeback but its funny because this RB meta attacking RB meta. This feels like a vet wolf told nauf how to respond to me. I didn't respond to it at the time because I just couldn't spare the tiime during that hectic end of the day, but this smells like wolf coaching to me.
While I’m here, Lewwyn what did you think about Cyneheard at the end of day 1? This, written before Cyne flipped wolf,
(September 4th, 2020, 10:59)Lewwyn Wrote: Bob and Cyne were both good lynches AT THIS TIME, but by the end of the day I was soured on Bob and Cyne.
I’m having trouble squaring with this, written after:
(September 4th, 2020, 15:45)Lewwyn Wrote: So by the end of the day I really wanted to lynch adrien. I tried to get people to switch over including scooter, but he made it clear he wasn’t going to do that. As we got down to the end I could see the adrien lynch wasnt going to happen and I was very soured on bob given the people on the bob vote most notablely adrien and scooter. I was hoping Rowain would see what I saw at the very end and switch over to cyne with me.
Between Bob and cyne, I felt Bobs I reaction was a 50/50 on him being town or scum, the fact that it was so easy also made me feel more mislynchy. I almost swapped onto cyne before I went to bed, but decided to stay on Bob and see what would happen overnight and then switch onto cyneheard closer to the lynch so that there would be more momentum on him. In particular I was thinking this because Cyne was very scummy in not as obvious way. It was a very wolfy and opportunistic thing, and I felt the defense was extremely weak. I felt like cyne was much less obvious and more of a caught wolf while bob was just... bob.
I also went into the final hours thinking adrien, nauf, cyne and Bob were people I would want lynched. As I said Bob fell off faster with the people on him. IMO the wolves are spread out over the voting, but if in fact adrien is a wolf, I could see 2-3 wolves being on Bob. When it got down to the end I saw my vote probably wasn’t going to matter as much unless Rowain switch with me, and Rowain has shown that he will do that in the past, so I thought it worth it.
(September 5th, 2020, 07:30)Serdoa Wrote: With the way I view naufragar (wolf) I think it could be that Cyneheard tried to deliberately save naufragar from being lynched. That's why he took a clear stance on him (and GKC as another newbie to make it not obvious) while being wishy-washy on everyone else, that's why he defended him and that is also why he did never answer me at the end.
Did you re-read the day 1 events (considering Cyneheard was a wolf) before making the list? I would assuem so as there were random mentions about some connections. To me it doesn't seem like the thread was genuinely viewed with a mind to look who looks good/bad with Cyneheard's reveal.
Examples:
Pindicator town despite not voting going after cyneheard.
Naufragar suspicious, despite being one of the cyneheard voters.
superdeath suspicious, despite being Cyneheard's main target. Notice that Cyneheard had pressure to make a concrete vote and read, and I think he chose superdewth for the kill.
Lewwyn undecided, despite being the main accuser of cyneheard.
me, Pindicator attack comes of a surprise(?) despite me trying to start the push on him near deadline and making a concrete accusation after that. I don't think you've read my posts.
This list looks very fishy to me, crafted without the real sense on what happened yesterday.
I admit I didn't re-read all of day 1 and relied more on my written notes. That happened mostly because preparing my final day 1 vote was already a very time-consuming and demanding task and I was not able to show the same thoroughness this morning. I see that the biggest issue is that I concentrated too much on the bob-lynch and not on the Cynehear reveal I will get to that. But first you mentioned:
(September 5th, 2020, 05:24)Meiz Wrote: me, Pindicator attack comes of a surprise(?) despite me trying to start the push on him near deadline and making a concrete accusation after that. I don't think you've read my posts.
I've gone back to your last posts from day 1 regarding pindicator. The first ones I've looked at were: #204 and #294 . From those I had the feeling that you trusted pindicator. Then you show your first doubts on pindicator in #300 , which I at first misread at the time and put it wrong into my notes. Then you put pressure on pindicator with #311 , #338 and #357.
tl:dr you absolutely did suspect pindicator on day 1. I can only say I'm sorry and hope you accept my apology. I was wrong about suggesting you suddenly suspect pindicator. The surprise on my side was genuine, but the cause was not you being scummy, but rather me not being thorough enough. Once again I'm sorry for mischaracterizing you there.
Now back to the topic of my list with regard to Cyneheard. I've looked at all players again and in case somebody changed position for me I highlighted it.
Trust-list:
Serdoa: I mentioned that he voted for Cyneheard. So far nothing has changed in that regard for me. Still here on the trust-list for all that I've already said about him.
Chevalier: He explained his not-voting for Cyneheard back here #316. He explained his vote for Superdeath as risk mitigation, which I believe, because I thought about the same lines as he did.
Rowain: He voted for Cyneheard here #299, which reads more like a let's put him on the spot line then like a "he's a werewolf". He then switched to Adrien #343 after being pressured by Lewwyn in the previous post. Did I read that right Rowain?
pindicator: pindicator pressured Adrien at #271 for his opinion about Cyneheard. He continued that with his final vote for Adrien at #290, which was one of the reason for me to vote for Adrien, too. Now this vote happened before the votes on Cyneheard increased, if I'm not mistaken. Him not voting for Cyneheard is not a bad sign for me, because at day 1 no villager can be sure who is who. I still trust him, but I will try to be more observant of his behaviour in the future. Consider this a town-lean.
meiz: I've already written something about you above. I don't want to repeat myself here. I made a mistake.
Distrust-list:
Superdeath: I don't think being the main target of Cyneheard says that much about Superdeath. More important about Superdeath is that he kept his vote on Bob. He was one of the later voters of Bob, who also stayed on Bob till the end. This definitely saved Cyneheard on day 1. That's why he stays on the Distrust list. As for why why Cyneheard kept his vote on Superdeath I can only speculate: Maybe to give Superdeath a good cover? Maybe he felt safe enough and didn't want to switch votes making him more of a suspect? Or what I think is the most plausible thing is that he had given up on this game at that moment. He mentioned time-constraints too in the past.
Adrien: His vote for Bob definitely was a try to safe himself, but important to note is that at the time he voted for Bob (#373) both Bob and Cyneheard had 5 votes. He could have just as easily voted Cyneheard to save himself, but he didn't
Undecided:
naufragar: If I'm counting correctly then he was the 5th vote on Cyneheard at #312. Now this was definitely a dangerous vote if he's a wolf especially because he did not hop off of him. Looking back this is definitely a good sign and in retrospect I have to move him to the Undecided list for now. I still don't like some of the things he writes, but his day 1 vote is a good indicator for him being town.
Lewwyn: To be fair Lewwyn is the main accuser of a lot of people. But back then that's definitely true, but he wasn't alone. I had the feeling that Gaspar was equally on Cyneheard already. Now I do hold this to Lewwyn's credit. The fact that he voted last minute for Cyneheard is also a big plus. The reason he's on this list is because he's all over the place with accusations and at times it's hard to follow him at his speed. I also have a natural cautious distrust of charismatic leaders, which Lewwyn can take as compliment if he wants. The possibility of a third faction is also a reason why I kept him here. Without that possibility he would be on the Trust list, so consider this a town-lean.
Commodore: He was the third voter of Bob and stayed there. The bob vote did save Cyneheard day 1, which is the one reason why Commodore is here.
scooter: Same as Commodore, with the exception that he was the fourth voter.
GKC: Same as Commodore and scooter, but this is worse for him, because he was one of the last voters for Bob.
Once again sorry for not being thorough enough in my initial list.
(September 5th, 2020, 07:30)Serdoa Wrote: With the way I view naufragar (wolf) I think it could be that Cyneheard tried to deliberately save naufragar from being lynched. That's why he took a clear stance on him (and GKC as another newbie to make it not obvious) while being wishy-washy on everyone else, that's why he defended him and that is also why he did never answer me at the end.
Serdoa, what's your read of GKC?
None, neither town nor wolf. I like some of the things he wrote in regards to you though. But in general, I'm more inclined to question / vote for you, scooter, AdrienIer, Comm, SD (the latter still not really playing and skating by).
(September 5th, 2020, 07:58)naufragar Wrote: Nope, can’t let this condescension go unremarked.
(September 4th, 2020, 22:41)Lewwyn Wrote: This is a pretty good comeback but its funny because this RB meta attacking RB meta. This feels like a vet wolf told nauf how to respond to me.
This is the most condescending crap I’ve read so far. All my plays that you think are sloppy you attribute to my own sloppiness. A play that you think is good can’t possibly be mine. Take a long walk off a short pier.
I can't wait to read the wolf thread.
Honestly I didn't see it as a good attack or even a relevant attack. I honestly think there was a huge overreaction to Rowain and me and I just don't see the issue. If you read the more detailed explanation I gave of how I percieved it and what happened in that moment between Rowain and I you'd understand that. But people want to seem to want to skip the explanation which came just minutes after the initial moment. Serdoa questioning it was fine because he clarified and prompted the clearer explanation.
(September 5th, 2020, 07:58)naufragar Wrote:
(September 4th, 2020, 10:59)Lewwyn Wrote: Bob and Cyne were both good lynches AT THIS TIME, but by the end of the day I was soured on Bob and Cyne.
I’m having trouble squaring with this, written after:
(September 4th, 2020, 15:45)Lewwyn Wrote: So by the end of the day I really wanted to lynch adrien. I tried to get people to switch over including scooter, but he made it clear he wasn’t going to do that. As we got down to the end I could see the adrien lynch wasnt going to happen and I was very soured on bob given the people on the bob vote most notablely adrien and scooter. I was hoping Rowain would see what I saw at the very end and switch over to cyne with me.
Between Bob and cyne, I felt Bobs I reaction was a 50/50 on him being town or scum, the fact that it was so easy also made me feel more mislynchy. I almost swapped onto cyne before I went to bed, but decided to stay on Bob and see what would happen overnight and then switch onto cyneheard closer to the lynch so that there would be more momentum on him. In particular I was thinking this because Cyne was very scummy in not as obvious way. It was a very wolfy and opportunistic thing, and I felt the defense was extremely weak. I felt like cyne was much less obvious and more of a caught wolf while bob was just... bob.
I also went into the final hours thinking adrien, nauf, cyne and Bob were people I would want lynched. As I said Bob fell off faster with the people on him. IMO the wolves are spread out over the voting, but if in fact adrien is a wolf, I could see 2-3 wolves being on Bob. When it got down to the end I saw my vote probably wasn’t going to matter as much unless Rowain switch with me, and Rowain has shown that he will do that in the past, so I thought it worth it.
Sure let's talk about this. At the time they were good lynches, by the end of the day I had soured on them and was much more interested in the Adrien lynch. This does not mean that I had dropped my impression of their scuminess, nor that I wasn't willing to vote for them. In the second longer quote here I basically explain that very thing. You seem to suggest that these are contradictory, in fact, you seem to be trying to catch me in an inconstancy, but they actually affirm each other. I went into the final hour with those four in mind, I became less excited about a cyne and Bob lynch and more excited about Adrien. In the end as I've explained I believed Cyne to be scummier than Bob and I swapped over hoping for Rowain as I've stated.
“The wind went mute and the trees in the forest stood still. It was time for the last tale.”
(September 5th, 2020, 08:04)Charriu Wrote: Adrien: His vote for Bob definitely was a try to safe himself, but important to note is that at the time he voted for Bob (#373) both Bob and Cyneheard had 5 votes. He could have just as easily voted Cyneheard to save himself, but he didn't
This caused huge alarm bells, but after re-checking I think the votes were:
(September 5th, 2020, 04:18)AdrienIer Wrote: A vig (Meiz ? Serdoa ?) shot Cyneheard to advance the game.
Why would you speculate on this so openly? I'd rather our vigilante not get eaten by wolves if that's indeed what we have. Why give them this info like this if you are right? Unless you were speculating with your wolf buddies to try to find him tonight, and because of that it was fresh on your mind.
But back then that's definitely true, but he wasn't alone. I had the feeling that Gaspar was equally on Cyneheard already. Now I do hold this to Lewwyn's credit. The fact that he voted last minute for Cyneheard is also a big plus. The reason he's on this list is because he's all over the place with accusations and at times it's hard to follow him at his speed. I also have a natural cautious distrust of charismatic leaders, which Lewwyn can take as compliment if he wants. The possibility of a third faction is also a reason why I kept him here. Without that possibility he would be on the Trust list, so consider this a town-lean.
