[Lurkers] Putting the Old Fogeys into a List

[Mjmd]

Victoria

I loved her first!  

Heh you passed her in PB52, she's my lady now.

It's interesting to see Serdoa doing a reanalyzing of mysticism start and conclude it is probably even, but makes everything super awkward. Which to be fair was the point of the buff, but again just I think people see that buff (myself included) and think they have to have.

[pindicator]

I remember looking at Myst in 52 and thinking "that's nice if I wanted a myst civ". But not game breaking if I need another tech path.

[scooter]

I think Lewwyn is slightly overselling Mysticism, but it's still an important tech that this version of CTH strongly encourages picking. If you're not Creative, you need it sooner or later to pop borders one way or another, so the opportunity cost of both the tech cost and the +1c/turn add up quite a bit.


Also, surprised none of them are accounting for turn order with picking PRO unless I missed it. I don't think this mod fixes the longstanding PBEM issue where higher in the turn order gets preferential trade routes. One of the many reasons I have 0 interest in a PBEM.

[pindicator]

Okay, here is my first draft of the map.

Please post your criticism within the next 24 hours.  I'll still work on things in that time, but it's largely where I want it to be.  Maybe a little too lush for what I meant to give.

It ended up being a little smaller than asked for as players are all 13-14 tiles apart.

[Kurumi]

I put the map into Novice's tool (GermanJoey's seems not to be compatible with CtH or something) and that's what it told me:

Total Map Unfairness: 1138.25

Player 0: HANNIBAL of MAYA
Color: PLAYERCOLOR_MIDDLE_CYAN
6439.77 (35.3834) Land Quality.
45 Ocean.
92 Coast.
5 Lake (Fresh Water).
90 Land.
55 Grassland.
27 Plains.
6 Desert.
2 Tundra.
0 Snow.
21 Hill.
32 Forest.
8 Jungle.
4 Floodplains.
1 Oasis.
28 Riverside.
49 Irrigation.
480.5 Food.
131 Hammers.
351.5 Commerce.
10 Food Resources (5 BONUS_CLAM. 2 BONUS_COW. 3 BONUS_CRAB. 2 BONUS_DEER. 3 BONUS_FISH. 1 BONUS_RICE. 3 BONUS_SHEEP. 1 BONUS_SUGAR. 2 BONUS_WHALE. 1 BONUS_WHEAT. ).
10 Health Resources (5 BONUS_CLAM. 2 BONUS_COW. 3 BONUS_CRAB. 2 BONUS_DEER. 3 BONUS_FISH. 1 BONUS_RICE. 3 BONUS_SHEEP. 1 BONUS_SUGAR. 2 BONUS_WHALE. 1 BONUS_WHEAT. ).
5 Happy Resources (3 BONUS_DYE. 2 BONUS_FUR. 1 BONUS_GOLD. 1 BONUS_SUGAR. 2 BONUS_WHALE. ).
8 Strategic Resources (1 BONUS_ALUMINUM. 1 BONUS_COAL. 1 BONUS_COPPER. 2 BONUS_HORSE. 2 BONUS_IRON. 2 BONUS_OIL. 2 BONUS_STONE. 1 BONUS_URANIUM. ).

Player 1: CHINESE LEADER of CHINA
Color: PLAYERCOLOR_DARK_PINK
7205.12 (39.8073) Land Quality.
17 Ocean.
62 Coast.
11 Lake (Fresh Water).
119 Land.
72 Grassland.
37 Plains.
4 Desert.
6 Tundra.
0 Snow.
27 Hill.
48 Forest.
15 Jungle.
1 Floodplains.
1 Oasis.
49 Riverside.
74 Irrigation.
432.5 Food.
146 Hammers.
315.5 Commerce.
11 Food Resources (3 BONUS_BANANA. 2 BONUS_CLAM. 1 BONUS_COW. 1 BONUS_DEER. 4 BONUS_FISH. 1 BONUS_PIG. 2 BONUS_RICE. 2 BONUS_SHEEP. 3 BONUS_SUGAR. 2 BONUS_WHALE. 2 BONUS_WHEAT. ).
11 Health Resources (3 BONUS_BANANA. 2 BONUS_CLAM. 1 BONUS_COW. 1 BONUS_DEER. 4 BONUS_FISH. 1 BONUS_PIG. 2 BONUS_RICE. 2 BONUS_SHEEP. 3 BONUS_SUGAR. 2 BONUS_WHALE. 2 BONUS_WHEAT. ).
5 Happy Resources (2 BONUS_FUR. 2 BONUS_GEMS. 2 BONUS_GOLD. 3 BONUS_SUGAR. 2 BONUS_WHALE. ).
7 Strategic Resources (1 BONUS_ALUMINUM. 1 BONUS_COAL. 1 BONUS_COPPER. 2 BONUS_IRON. 2 BONUS_OIL. 2 BONUS_STONE. 2 BONUS_URANIUM. ).

Player 2: CHARLEMAGNE of SPAIN
Color: PLAYERCOLOR_PINK
6808.04 (34.3841) Land Quality.
29 Ocean.
79 Coast.
8 Lake (Fresh Water).
119 Land.
61 Grassland.
35 Plains.
13 Desert.
10 Tundra.
0 Snow.
36 Hill.
41 Forest.
6 Jungle.
6 Floodplains.
1 Oasis.
49 Riverside.
71 Irrigation.
451.5 Food.
167 Hammers.
344.5 Commerce.
8 Food Resources (1 BONUS_CLAM. 2 BONUS_CORN. 6 BONUS_CRAB. 2 BONUS_DEER. 1 BONUS_FISH. 2 BONUS_SHEEP. 3 BONUS_WHALE. 2 BONUS_WHEAT. ).
8 Health Resources (1 BONUS_CLAM. 2 BONUS_CORN. 6 BONUS_CRAB. 2 BONUS_DEER. 1 BONUS_FISH. 2 BONUS_SHEEP. 3 BONUS_WHALE. 2 BONUS_WHEAT. ).
5 Happy Resources (1 BONUS_GOLD. 2 BONUS_IVORY. 3 BONUS_SILK. 2 BONUS_SILVER. 3 BONUS_WHALE. ).
8 Strategic Resources (1 BONUS_ALUMINUM. 1 BONUS_COAL. 1 BONUS_COPPER. 1 BONUS_HORSE. 2 BONUS_IRON. 2 BONUS_IVORY. 1 BONUS_OIL. 1 BONUS_URANIUM. ).

Player 3: WANGKON of RUSSIA
Color: PLAYERCOLOR_DARK_RED
6897.28 (31.4944) Land Quality.
43 Ocean.
91 Coast.
6 Lake (Fresh Water).
128 Land.
59 Grassland.
51 Plains.
12 Desert.
6 Tundra.
0 Snow.
41 Hill.
43 Forest.
2 Jungle.
7 Floodplains.
0 Oasis.
54 Riverside.
67 Irrigation.
494.5 Food.
197 Hammers.
412 Commerce.
10 Food Resources (2 BONUS_CLAM. 1 BONUS_CORN. 3 BONUS_COW. 2 BONUS_CRAB. 2 BONUS_DEER. 3 BONUS_FISH. 1 BONUS_PIG. 2 BONUS_SHEEP. 2 BONUS_WHALE. 1 BONUS_WHEAT. ).
11 Health Resources (2 BONUS_CLAM. 1 BONUS_CORN. 3 BONUS_COW. 2 BONUS_CRAB. 2 BONUS_DEER. 3 BONUS_FISH. 1 BONUS_PIG. 2 BONUS_SHEEP. 2 BONUS_WHALE. 1 BONUS_WHEAT. 3 BONUS_WINE. ).
6 Happy Resources (2 BONUS_FUR. 1 BONUS_GEMS. 2 BONUS_GOLD. 1 BONUS_SILVER. 2 BONUS_WHALE. 3 BONUS_WINE. ).
7 Strategic Resources (1 BONUS_ALUMINUM. 1 BONUS_COAL. 1 BONUS_COPPER. 1 BONUS_IRON. 2 BONUS_MARBLE. 2 BONUS_OIL. 1 BONUS_URANIUM. ).

Player 4: JUSTINIAN of AZTEC
Color: PLAYERCOLOR_GREEN
6458.17 (37.3305) Land Quality.
13 Ocean.
57 Coast.
10 Lake (Fresh Water).
116 Land.
78 Grassland.
25 Plains.
4 Desert.
9 Tundra.
0 Snow.
32 Hill.
52 Forest.
16 Jungle.
1 Floodplains.
1 Oasis.
22 Riverside.
62 Irrigation.
394.5 Food.
159 Hammers.
261.5 Commerce.
8 Food Resources (2 BONUS_BANANA. 2 BONUS_CLAM. 1 BONUS_CORN. 5 BONUS_CRAB. 3 BONUS_DEER. 1 BONUS_FISH. 2 BONUS_PIG. 1 BONUS_SHEEP. ).
8 Health Resources (2 BONUS_BANANA. 2 BONUS_CLAM. 1 BONUS_CORN. 5 BONUS_CRAB. 3 BONUS_DEER. 1 BONUS_FISH. 2 BONUS_PIG. 1 BONUS_SHEEP. ).
5 Happy Resources (2 BONUS_GEMS. 1 BONUS_GOLD. 3 BONUS_INCENSE. 2 BONUS_IVORY. 1 BONUS_SILVER. ).
9 Strategic Resources (1 BONUS_ALUMINUM. 1 BONUS_COAL. 1 BONUS_COPPER. 1 BONUS_HORSE. 3 BONUS_IRON. 2 BONUS_IVORY. 1 BONUS_MARBLE. 2 BONUS_OIL. 1 BONUS_URANIUM. ).

Player 5: AUGUSTUS of BYZANTIUM
Color: PLAYERCOLOR_DARK_GRAY
5732.49 (33.3284) Land Quality.
34 Ocean.
76 Coast.
0 Lake (Fresh Water).
96 Land.
47 Grassland.
41 Plains.
3 Desert.
5 Tundra.
0 Snow.
18 Hill.
32 Forest.
8 Jungle.
1 Floodplains.
2 Oasis.
27 Riverside.
31 Irrigation.
404 Food.
130 Hammers.
335.5 Commerce.
8 Food Resources (2 BONUS_CLAM. 1 BONUS_CORN. 2 BONUS_COW. 3 BONUS_CRAB. 2 BONUS_DEER. 3 BONUS_FISH. 1 BONUS_RICE. 2 BONUS_WHEAT. ).
8 Health Resources (2 BONUS_CLAM. 1 BONUS_CORN. 2 BONUS_COW. 3 BONUS_CRAB. 2 BONUS_DEER. 3 BONUS_FISH. 1 BONUS_RICE. 2 BONUS_WHEAT. ).
3 Happy Resources (2 BONUS_IVORY. 2 BONUS_SILVER. 3 BONUS_SPICES. ).
8 Strategic Resources (1 BONUS_ALUMINUM. 1 BONUS_COAL. 1 BONUS_COPPER. 2 BONUS_IRON. 2 BONUS_IVORY. 1 BONUS_MARBLE. 2 BONUS_OIL. 2 BONUS_URANIUM. ).

Tool's simulated land grab:

Bob seems to start with more tiles uncovered that he should. Same with Lewwyn, Serdoa, Rusten.
SKC also has tiles uncovered that aren't in vision, but they seem to be ones you uncovered to show the start. Same with Noble.

From what I can see: Aztec start in regards to horse and copper is awful. Russia is the only start with Copper on the same river as the capital. China is the only other Civ to have copper on river. Byzantium and Russia lacks horse. There's random ocean tiles east of Russians by oil tundra island.

[AutomatedTeller]

There is an island by russia which has ocean for it's coast.

China seems to have access to silver, gems and gold, which seems unfair. The silver is certainly contested.

Is an uneven number of available islands on purpose?

Spain: 3
China: 2
Byzantium: 3
Russia: 3 (maybe 4)
Mutal: 2
Aztec: 2 (maybe 3)

1/2 the civs have a 3-0-1 tile in their first 9. 1 has a 3-1-0 (or, I suppose, a 3-0-3 tile) in their inner 9. The others have to make do with forest for a 2-1 or 1-2.

[pindicator]

Yeah, I'm trying not to mirror things, but I want to make sure they are fair enough that everyone has similar chance to win.

Uncovered tiles are from moving starts, I'll fix that.

Ocean coast is definitely a mistake. Not sure how I did that.

I like that all the metal happiness is showing at the border of civs, that was intended. I'll probably move some a tile here or there based on the tool map. There's also a gold south of Lewwyn's start that needs to be removed. Gems were meant to be a prize for the middle, but maybe that is a flawed idea.

Looks like I need to give NobleGas and Bob some more land

[pindicator]

Next draft.

Removed the gems as I felt the center was too lush.
Removed the stray gold from Lewwyn's south.
Added some land to NobleGas and BobChillingworth starts to even them a bit more based on the tool data.
Fixed the ocean issue in the southeast.

I'll make it final when I get home tonight, unless there's something glaring.

[Erwin]

Please check the distribution of horses. It looks like Byzantium, China and Russia are missing them, Spain has them like 11W from the capital. I'm not sure what the current consensus regarding ivory is and I'm too lazy to check which changes CtH made, but the distribution of ivory isn't that balanced either. I think that the Aztec's coal is also very awkwardly placed near China and it's not impossible that they would miss entirely out of it, I would move it closer to their capital.

On a more general note, I feel like the civs in the middle with 4 neighbors are handicapped in comparison with the ones with just 2 neighbors. I think a partial remedy would be to enable coast travel from east to west such that the corner civs would have one more direction to worry about, but that's a pretty major change and I understand if you feel like it's too much. In particular, I feel like the Aztecs could need a bit of a safe backline to settle, they are very much in the middle. This is very minor, but especially the fish down south (7S 1W from the capital) could potentially be very irritating, as it's easily orphaned unless they scout it very carefully. I think that making the island slightly bigger would alleviate both of these issues. The Aztec's copper is also in a quite challenging spot in comparison to many other civs, but this isn't necessarily a very big issue.

I think that the floodplains are slightly messed up near Russia's start. 3N from the starting location is floodplains, even though the desert is not on the river. Then, 5W 3N from the capital is a desert tile on a river that is not floodplains. Then, there is an unnatural resource, a grassland wheat, 4N from Maya. Is that intentional?

[Kurumi]

Put through novice tool again:

Total Map Unfairness: 751.908

Player 0: HANNIBAL of MAYA
Color: PLAYERCOLOR_MIDDLE_CYAN
6815.4 (32.4543) Land Quality.
43 Ocean.
109 Coast.
5 Lake (Fresh Water).
101 Land.
64 Grassland.
29 Plains.
6 Desert.
2 Tundra.
0 Snow.
23 Hill.
35 Forest.
8 Jungle.
4 Floodplains.
1 Oasis.
28 Riverside.
49 Irrigation.
532.5 Food.
139 Hammers.
406 Commerce.
10 Food Resources (5 BONUS_CLAM. 2 BONUS_COW. 4 BONUS_CRAB. 2 BONUS_DEER. 3 BONUS_FISH. 1 BONUS_RICE. 3 BONUS_SHEEP. 1 BONUS_SUGAR. 2 BONUS_WHALE. 1 BONUS_WHEAT. ).
10 Health Resources (5 BONUS_CLAM. 2 BONUS_COW. 4 BONUS_CRAB. 2 BONUS_DEER. 3 BONUS_FISH. 1 BONUS_RICE. 3 BONUS_SHEEP. 1 BONUS_SUGAR. 2 BONUS_WHALE. 1 BONUS_WHEAT. ).
5 Happy Resources (3 BONUS_DYE. 2 BONUS_FUR. 1 BONUS_GOLD. 1 BONUS_SUGAR. 2 BONUS_WHALE. ).
8 Strategic Resources (1 BONUS_ALUMINUM. 1 BONUS_COAL. 1 BONUS_COPPER. 2 BONUS_HORSE. 2 BONUS_IRON. 2 BONUS_OIL. 2 BONUS_STONE. 1 BONUS_URANIUM. ).

Player 1: CHINESE LEADER of CHINA
Color: PLAYERCOLOR_DARK_PINK
6726.92 (37.7917) Land Quality.
17 Ocean.
62 Coast.
11 Lake (Fresh Water).
116 Land.
70 Grassland.
36 Plains.
4 Desert.
6 Tundra.
0 Snow.
27 Hill.
47 Forest.
15 Jungle.
1 Floodplains.
1 Oasis.
48 Riverside.
75 Irrigation.
425.5 Food.
141 Hammers.
287 Commerce.
10 Food Resources (2 BONUS_BANANA. 2 BONUS_CLAM. 1 BONUS_DEER. 4 BONUS_FISH. 1 BONUS_PIG. 2 BONUS_RICE. 2 BONUS_SHEEP. 3 BONUS_SUGAR. 2 BONUS_WHALE. 2 BONUS_WHEAT. ).
10 Health Resources (2 BONUS_BANANA. 2 BONUS_CLAM. 1 BONUS_DEER. 4 BONUS_FISH. 1 BONUS_PIG. 2 BONUS_RICE. 2 BONUS_SHEEP. 3 BONUS_SUGAR. 2 BONUS_WHALE. 2 BONUS_WHEAT. ).
4 Happy Resources (2 BONUS_FUR. 1 BONUS_GOLD. 3 BONUS_SUGAR. 2 BONUS_WHALE. ).
7 Strategic Resources (1 BONUS_ALUMINUM. 1 BONUS_COAL. 1 BONUS_COPPER. 2 BONUS_IRON. 1 BONUS_OIL. 2 BONUS_STONE. 2 BONUS_URANIUM. ).

Player 2: CHARLEMAGNE of SPAIN
Color: PLAYERCOLOR_PINK
6914.3 (34.3995) Land Quality.
24 Ocean.
81 Coast.
9 Lake (Fresh Water).
120 Land.
62 Grassland.
36 Plains.
12 Desert.
10 Tundra.
0 Snow.
36 Hill.
46 Forest.
6 Jungle.
6 Floodplains.
1 Oasis.
49 Riverside.
73 Irrigation.
455 Food.
170 Hammers.
346 Commerce.
9 Food Resources (1 BONUS_CLAM. 2 BONUS_CORN. 1 BONUS_COW. 6 BONUS_CRAB. 2 BONUS_DEER. 1 BONUS_FISH. 2 BONUS_SHEEP. 3 BONUS_WHALE. 2 BONUS_WHEAT. ).
9 Health Resources (1 BONUS_CLAM. 2 BONUS_CORN. 1 BONUS_COW. 6 BONUS_CRAB. 2 BONUS_DEER. 1 BONUS_FISH. 2 BONUS_SHEEP. 3 BONUS_WHALE. 2 BONUS_WHEAT. ).
5 Happy Resources (1 BONUS_GOLD. 2 BONUS_IVORY. 3 BONUS_SILK. 2 BONUS_SILVER. 3 BONUS_WHALE. ).
8 Strategic Resources (1 BONUS_ALUMINUM. 1 BONUS_COAL. 1 BONUS_COPPER. 1 BONUS_HORSE. 2 BONUS_IRON. 2 BONUS_IVORY. 1 BONUS_OIL. 1 BONUS_URANIUM. ).

Player 3: WANGKON of RUSSIA
Color: PLAYERCOLOR_DARK_RED
6817.11 (30.9869) Land Quality.
41 Ocean.
91 Coast.
6 Lake (Fresh Water).
129 Land.
60 Grassland.
51 Plains.
12 Desert.
6 Tundra.
0 Snow.
41 Hill.
43 Forest.
2 Jungle.
7 Floodplains.
0 Oasis.
55 Riverside.
68 Irrigation.
497.5 Food.
196 Hammers.
405 Commerce.
11 Food Resources (1 BONUS_BANANA. 2 BONUS_CLAM. 1 BONUS_CORN. 3 BONUS_COW. 2 BONUS_CRAB. 2 BONUS_DEER. 3 BONUS_FISH. 1 BONUS_PIG. 2 BONUS_SHEEP. 2 BONUS_WHALE. 1 BONUS_WHEAT. ).
12 Health Resources (1 BONUS_BANANA. 2 BONUS_CLAM. 1 BONUS_CORN. 3 BONUS_COW. 2 BONUS_CRAB. 2 BONUS_DEER. 3 BONUS_FISH. 1 BONUS_PIG. 2 BONUS_SHEEP. 2 BONUS_WHALE. 1 BONUS_WHEAT. 3 BONUS_WINE. ).
5 Happy Resources (2 BONUS_FUR. 2 BONUS_GOLD. 1 BONUS_SILVER. 2 BONUS_WHALE. 3 BONUS_WINE. ).
7 Strategic Resources (1 BONUS_ALUMINUM. 1 BONUS_COAL. 1 BONUS_COPPER. 1 BONUS_IRON. 2 BONUS_MARBLE. 2 BONUS_OIL. 1 BONUS_URANIUM. ).

Player 4: JUSTINIAN of AZTEC
Color: PLAYERCOLOR_GREEN
6328.57 (36.3711) Land Quality.
13 Ocean.
60 Coast.
13 Lake (Fresh Water).
114 Land.
76 Grassland.
25 Plains.
4 Desert.
9 Tundra.
0 Snow.
30 Hill.
52 Forest.
16 Jungle.
1 Floodplains.
1 Oasis.
22 Riverside.
72 Irrigation.
409.5 Food.
154 Hammers.
241.5 Commerce.
8 Food Resources (2 BONUS_BANANA. 2 BONUS_CLAM. 1 BONUS_CORN. 5 BONUS_CRAB. 3 BONUS_DEER. 1 BONUS_FISH. 2 BONUS_PIG. 1 BONUS_SHEEP. ).
8 Health Resources (2 BONUS_BANANA. 2 BONUS_CLAM. 1 BONUS_CORN. 5 BONUS_CRAB. 3 BONUS_DEER. 1 BONUS_FISH. 2 BONUS_PIG. 1 BONUS_SHEEP. ).
4 Happy Resources (1 BONUS_GOLD. 3 BONUS_INCENSE. 2 BONUS_IVORY. 1 BONUS_SILVER. ).
9 Strategic Resources (1 BONUS_ALUMINUM. 1 BONUS_COAL. 1 BONUS_COPPER. 1 BONUS_HORSE. 3 BONUS_IRON. 2 BONUS_IVORY. 1 BONUS_MARBLE. 3 BONUS_OIL. 1 BONUS_URANIUM. ).

Player 5: AUGUSTUS of BYZANTIUM
Color: PLAYERCOLOR_DARK_GRAY
6067.02 (31.9317) Land Quality.
35 Ocean.
83 Coast.
0 Lake (Fresh Water).
107 Land.
54 Grassland.
42 Plains.
3 Desert.
8 Tundra.
0 Snow.
20 Hill.
37 Forest.
8 Jungle.
1 Floodplains.
2 Oasis.
27 Riverside.
31 Irrigation.
445.5 Food.
136 Hammers.
368 Commerce.
8 Food Resources (3 BONUS_CLAM. 1 BONUS_CORN. 2 BONUS_COW. 4 BONUS_CRAB. 2 BONUS_DEER. 4 BONUS_FISH. 1 BONUS_RICE. 2 BONUS_WHEAT. ).
8 Health Resources (3 BONUS_CLAM. 1 BONUS_CORN. 2 BONUS_COW. 4 BONUS_CRAB. 2 BONUS_DEER. 4 BONUS_FISH. 1 BONUS_RICE. 2 BONUS_WHEAT. ).
3 Happy Resources (2 BONUS_IVORY. 2 BONUS_SILVER. 3 BONUS_SPICES. ).
8 Strategic Resources (1 BONUS_ALUMINUM. 1 BONUS_COAL. 1 BONUS_COPPER. 2 BONUS_IRON. 2 BONUS_IVORY. 1 BONUS_MARBLE. 2 BONUS_OIL. 2 BONUS_URANIUM. ).

Graphical representation: