WW 46: Wolves Return to Realms Beyond

[Serdoa]

I find it funny how you again dismiss the reason I have given. I have given my reasons just look and read them . You might not like them you might not accept them but these were my reasons and no matter how often you reiterate "You have not given reasons" you won't get any different answer. There are no more hidden reasons but what I have explained already.
And yes I was surprised that no one has used my voting for an attack on me before and this makes your attack 24 hours after Cyneheard alignment was known very strange. That is not an contradiction. Why do you try to paint it as one?

Not going to discuss this any longer Rowain. I let others decide how they feel about this interaction, I don't think we both will learn any more form keeping at it. You believe that I don't listen to your reasons, I believe that I took the reasons you've given (for your votes) into account. We simply might misunderstand each other, I think your first sentence is pretty much spot on: If I have to decide right now, I can believe the reasons you've given or I can believe that you lie to save your hide. Currently I do the latter.

Btw: In your last sentence, you do call my 'attack on you' at this time "very strange", dismissing the reasons I've given for why I only now pointed out the string of events. You do exactly what you accuse me of, so let me just say:

You might not like my reasons, you might not accept them, but these were my reasons and no matter how often you reiterate "It is strange" you won't get a different answer.

(Though I don't think the personal attack against me was necessary to come to this point.)

[Rowain]

I find it funny how you again dismiss the reason I have given. I have given my reasons just look and read them . You might not like them you might not accept them but these were my reasons and no matter how often you reiterate "You have not given reasons" you won't get any different answer. There are no more hidden reasons but what I have explained already.
And yes I was surprised that no one has used my voting for an attack on me before and this makes your attack 24 hours after Cyneheard alignment was known very strange. That is not an contradiction. Why do you try to paint it as one?

Not going to discuss this any longer Rowain. I let others decide how they feel about this interaction, I don't think we both will learn any more form keeping at it. You believe that I don't listen to your reasons, I believe that I took the reasons you've given (for your votes) into account. We simply might misunderstand each other, I think your first sentence is pretty much spot on: If I have to decide right now, I can believe the reasons you've given or I can believe that you lie to save your hide. Currently I do the latter.

Btw: In your last sentence, you do call my 'attack on you' at this time "very strange", dismissing the reasons I've given for why I only now pointed out the string of events. You do exactly what you accuse me of, so let me just say:

You might not like my reasons, you might not accept them, but these were my reasons and no matter how often you reiterate "It is strange" you won't get a different answer.

(Though I don't think the personal attack against me was necessary to come to this point.)

6 hours ago you posted

I've written in my long post now about it, but as that might get lost in all the discussion, so in short: I think the wolves accepted that Cyneheard might get lynched and naufragar jumped on him in case it happened.

Here you completely dismiss the fact that naufragar was in fact the 5th vote on Cyneheard the one that really put CH into danger as a "the wolves have accepted CH dies so wolf naufr had to jump on him. No mention of me jumping of CH here"  That is strange. So have the wolves decided to let CH get lynched or not? Do you want to keep the cake and eat it?
Your attack is not consistent with your former believes. your attack happens at a weird time And for me your attack smells like a wolf trying to save another from the gallows because with 1 wolf already down you can't afford to lose another one.

[Rowain]

@Serdoa
given the fact that you have brought up my voting what do you think about the silence in that regard from

Lewwyn, Meiz (also in the light that you claimed he gave me the answer to his question), pindicator, scooter, Commodore ?

[Serdoa]

6 hours ago you posted

I've written in my long post now about it, but as that might get lost in all the discussion, so in short: I think the wolves accepted that Cyneheard might get lynched and naufragar jumped on him in case it happened.

Here you completely dismiss the fact that naufragar was in fact the 5th vote on Cyneheard the one that really put CH into danger as a "the wolves have accepted CH dies so wolf naufr had to jump on him. No mention of me jumping of CH here"  That is strange. So have the wolves decided to let CH get lynched or not? Do you want to keep the cake and eat it?
Your attack is not consistent with your former believes. your attack happens at a weird time And for me your attack smells like a wolf trying to save another from the gallows because with 1 wolf already down you can't afford to lose another one.

Rowain, you are tiring me. I'll not even talk about all the things you left out about what I wrote but just point out that I made the case on you simply for what you did and that I don't try to see how naufragar could fit into that, because he might not. I don't know who is a wolf, and even though you like to paint me as a dumb asshole that just sticks to one player and can't be reasoned with I actually do look at different players and what they've done, I listen to them and others, and I don't try to put everything together in a big "theory of all". I might be right on nauf (and that would warrant a closer look at others as I pointed out), I might be right on you. I might even be wrong on both. But if I see something that looks like a wolf-pattern, I will point it out and I will not let myself be silenced by someone just because "it was the wrong time to point out my faulty play" or "but you had a different theory and both don't work together".

So, do I believe the wolves did "A" or "B"? I think both possibilities make sense and I try to see what else would fit to either. naufragar does fit into one, but you fit into another. That is not trying to have it both ways, that is pointing out behavior of active players (you, nauf) and how that behavior could fit a wolf-play. What else I am to do? Ask open questions without following up or even being interested in the answer as you did several times this game? Flip my vote without giving any sensible reason, so afterwards whoever accuses me will be told off, because I explained already that I voted willy-nilly, like you did this game?

Honestly, I don't mind discussing things and I am open for different viewpoints, but that is not what you do or even try. You don't discuss anything. From my first post on, you deflected and tried to turn my questions towards you around. You basically stated: "Yeah, everything you point out is correct, my play can't be explained further and it is understandable that I come under scrutiny. HOWEVER how dare you to talk about that at this time."

But lets think this through: If I were a wolf as you insinuate, I would have had to realize that your play made you a lynchable villager but instead of capitalizing on that right away, I waited till my wolf-buddy had one vote to attack you to save him (from what exactly. your vote?). I also attack you for that save, not nauf, who several players have distrust towards already. Or is nauf my scum-buddy in your story? That would be something now. Short: This story of yours makes no sense.

[Serdoa]

@Serdoa
given the fact that you have brought up my voting what do you think about the silence in that regard from

Lewwyn, Meiz (also in the light that you claimed he gave me the answer to his question), pindicator, scooter, Commodore ?

I will go to bed now and hope that they will have chimed in when I come back tomorrow. Maybe they had the same issue I had, and simply didn't realize that there is more to it then just one vote being changed at a bad time, maybe they did realize what I realized earlier, but believe that it means nothing. Currently I believe several of them just started their Saturday, so their silence isn't telling me anything, their take on the issue will.

[Rowain]

Rowain, you are tiring me.

Are you kidding me? Are you now playing the "I'm so poor rowain is soo tiring"-card? What do you think how naufragar feels about you and your endless attacks? Btw I don't know if he is wolf or not but reread your posts and tell me that you are not tiring.

You basically stated: "Yeah, everything you point out is correct, my play can't be explained further and it is understandable that I come under scrutiny. HOWEVER how dare you to talk about that at this time."

That is correct. Again I know how my voting looks and I was surprised that so far nobody has pointed it out. And thats why I was surprised when suddenly 24 hours after CH was dead an attack came from you. From someone who had reread Day1 at least once. That is a fact that remains as strange and questionable as my vote no matter how tiring this makes you feel.

[naufragar]

Frankly, the lack of interaction with some of my posts on nauf has made me feel a bit disconnected with the game (serdoa/lewwyn excepted), and now people are asking me to speak up?

I can tell you why I haven't been interacting. This was the last time I responded to one of your accusations:

Every post you make makes it seem like you know something everyone else doesn't.

Don't hide behind innuendo. What part seems like I know something others don't?

I make a lengthy post. Your entire response is "Every post you make makes it seem like you know something everyone else doesn't." I ask you why you say that. You never respond. I don't interact with your posts because you are the innuendo fairy, sprinkling suspicion dust on me. My favorite example comes from your naufragar dossier, my highlighting.

#30
The post where it all began. Nauf comments on Lewwyn's vote for no apparent reason, noting he didn't mention the self-vote, when Lewwyn's post quite literally quoted it. Then the wink at the end? Then, not voting for Serdoa as well just confounded everyone. Not necessarily scummy, just off...

Here's the post, although since it started things off, it's probably well known:

Over/under on the number of hours before this lovefest ends and the knives come out?

Weird that you voted Serdoa without mentioning his self-vote.

Alright GKC, what about the wink at the end? What argument are you making about that wink? Is it scummy? Is there a case you'd like to build on it, or, when you say "Then that wink at the end?" and stop, are you just trying to sprinkle suspicion dust?

I don't respond to every single time you do this (although, yes, if you insist I'm happy to go line-by-line and point out more). So when you say something like

Rowain/Nauf - neither of you have answered my suspicions in my earlier dossier on nauf about your strange combined posting and mutual defensiveness.

I roll my eyes. "Answered your suspicions?" Say what you mean. Make your case. Do you think Rowain is town and I'm trying to suck up to him? Do you think Rowain is my scum buddy? You point at my posts and say "that's weird," hoping that readers who don't dive in for themselves will buy the aura of doubt you're trying to cast.

[BRickAstley]

Tally as of post 590:

Lynch votes
2 votes: AdrienIer (Charriu, Chevalier Mal Fet)
2 votes: Scooter (Commodore, Lewwyn)
2 votes: Commodore (pindicator, AdrienIer)
2 votes: GeneralKilCavalry (Rowain, naufragar)
1 votes: pindicator (Meiz)
1 votes: Chevalier Mal Fet (superdeath)
1 votes: naufragar (GeneralKilCavalry)
1 votes: Lewwyn (scooter)
1 votes: Rowain (Serdoa)

Voting history:

Pindicator

Cyneheard

Cyneheard

AdrienIer

AdrienIer

Chevalier Mal Fet

AdrienIer

AdrienIer

Serdoa

AdrienIer

naufragar

Scooter

scooter

Lewwyn

Scooter

AdrienIer

Pindicator

Commodore

Commodore

GeneralKilCavalry

Rowain

GeneralKilCavalry

naufragar

GeneralKilCavalry

pindicator

A little over 15 hours remain.

Also to say this ahead of time; I should be on to post resolution right at the end of Day 2. However, I probably will be a little late to post the results of Night 2. The 1100 CDT / 1600 GMT deadline for getting in night actions will still apply, but you might need to wait a bit for those results to be published.

[Commodore]

About to record an actual play podcast (wish us luck) so don't have a lot of time, but I'm twitchy about the low-energy day resulting in this vote-smear. Briefly, since I was asked about GKC; yes, logic says he could have also been a wolf to put away Bob. He's given me fairly positive vibes today, but I do think he's certainly possible. Hell of a first game scum if so.

[scooter]

@Scooter - now that you have that kind of data, what does that tell you about day 1 voting?  Have you gone back?  Start reading around post 240 until the end of the day and give me your thoughts.  You can dig earlier, but I'm not sure there was more than Gaspar on Cyneheard before that.  I still don't like your day 1, but it makes sense to me if you truly felt lost.  So now that you have evidence I want to see some pro-town work out of you.

I did a re-read of a chunk of that section. Not much really jumped out at me, but I was mostly interested in this question from Chevalier, so I put the most emphasis on Gaspar posts and conversation around them.

Gaspar: Why target Gaspar? WIFOM dangers here, but it seems foolish of the scum to knock off a villager who was only accusing other villagers.

Good news: I think this is easy to answer. Bad news: It doesn't help us going forward. It's not complicated though: Gaspar was all over Cyneheard and was generally trying to prod votes towards him late on Day 1. With Bob getting lynched as a villager, and Gaspar being one of the leaders of the Lynch Cyneheard Train, that makes him a natural wolf target. Complicating things is that Cyneheard isn't just a wolf, but a power wolf. Brick's message says his role is "Jack of All Trades." What this means exactly is a bit unclear to me, but the point is he had powers, and the wolves wanted to protect Cyneheard especially in order to do so. Of course, the Vigilante or some similar role managed to kill Cyneheard, so it was sort of in vain.


Here's his last few posts before the end of the day.

Mobile for the rest of the day period, so no fancy quoting or formatting.

I agree with much of what Serdoa says, which is weird.  But basically people im ok with hanging today are Cyneheard, pindicator and Bob. Probably in that order.

For what its worth, my scumminess rankings are Cyneheard > pindicator > Bob. I like Bob less mostly because o don't like how his train built up after I voted for him, and I think one way or another that will be interesting on day 2 after we know more

Adrien: I dont like his game but I don't have a real read beyond that.

Scooter: I definitely could be talked into him. I feel he often does a thing where he notices things and reacts to them but doesn't specifically mention that he's reacted. Its like a form of defensiveness but because he has a such a silver tongue he can avoid everyone noticing.

I much prefer a Cyneheard or pindicator lynch though.

Pretty consistently, Gaspar was on Cyneheard, pindicator, and Bob, with passing mentions of myself and Adrien. My read of this is pretty simply that the wolves were trying to take out one of the folks they expected to go after Cyneheard on Day 2, but the more speculative theory is that they were worried because he was onto Cyneheard and pindicator. I'm not sure this is enough to make me vote for pindicator, but it's interesting. Ultimately, I think it's pretty clear the wolves were making an effort to keep Cyneheard safe for longer in order to have access to his abilities. That conclusion makes the following post confusing.

Serdoa, how do you feel about naufragars vote on Cyneheard? https://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/show...#pid745032

I've written in my long post now about it, but as that might get lost in all the discussion, so in short: I think the wolves accepted that Cyneheard might get lynched and naufragar jumped on him in case it happened.

This strikes me as a really weird opinion. As I mention up above, does it not bother you at all that Cyneheard was a power wolf? Depending on what his JOAT abilities are, he's a potential win condition. I feel like that's a huge deal, and I find it really hard to fathom the wolves would merely accept the fact that they could lose him on the very first day. Do you not think that's a big deal?