American Politics Discussion Thread

[Amicalola]

Thing is, Democratic voters are doing exactly the same thing, acting in their economic self interest. 

How would this explain the shift in more educated US voters, who presumably have better employment situations/opportunities and certainly average higher incomes, increasingly voting left?

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/201...ed-adults/

[Jowy]

Don't however expect anyone else to give a shit about what most benefits T-Hawk.

When did I say I did?  You support your interest, fine.  You just don't get to scream at me for supporting mine.

Thing is, Democratic voters are doing exactly the same thing, acting in their economic self interest.  Of course parasites want to acquire resources from the successful, in the form of medical services and UBI and whatever other handouts.  They just convince themselves that there's some layer of virtue and righteousness to that which somehow justifies unbounded screaming and insulting at the other side.  They don't realize that insults and sarcasm doesn't constitute an argument and changes no minds, just makes them give up bothering to argue... but it doesn't budge any votes.

Remember the "blue wave" of 2018 that didn't happen?  Same goes again this year.  There's a lot more than the 3%-4% cited upthread whom Republican policies serve better, and the Democrats' self-inflicted obliviousness to that is why they can't figure out how to actually make progress.

From 2016, the story was, "how did the Republicans become the party of the working class?"  The answer is the Democrats chose to become the party of the nonworking class instead.  Like the "we'll put the coal miners out of work" comment and then they lost the coal mining states.  I'm no ideologue, if the Democrats can figure out how to appeal to my interests, I'm all welcome for that... but they don't even try.

I'd hope no party will ever try to appeal to someone who thinks of other human beings as parasites.

I need to stop reading this thread. I appreciate everyone fighting the good fight over at the US, as frustrating as it must be. What happens there affects us all worldwide.

[darrelljs]

Well, not a whole lot in this thread to make me doubt the theory.  I was also unmoved by the CNN article I read this morning that promotes the theory that it's in our DNA .

Darrell

[T-hawk]

I'd hope no party will ever try to appeal to someone who thinks of other human beings as parasites.

This right here is the blind spot that the Democrats can't figure out. This attitude is a lot more prevalent than they realize. They don't hear it because it's not trendy to broadcast. The Democrats write it off as "deplorable", trapping themselves into being unable to acknowledge and appeal to it... and then are surprised that they can't seem to dent Trump's support.

How would this explain the shift in more educated US voters, who presumably have better employment situations/opportunities and certainly average higher incomes, increasingly voting left?

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/201...ed-adults/

They're not voting left. That article says nothing about votes. It says they agree or identify with liberal positions. I would even show up on such a poll, I'm all for real social improvements like LGBTQ rights. It's the same error, mistaking perceived appeal for votes. The social issues sound trendy but that's not where the swing votes fall when their jobs are on the line.

[Jowy]

In the 2016 election, a wide gap in presidential preferences emerged between those with and without a college degree. College graduates backed Clinton by a 9-point margin (52%-43%), while those without a college degree backed Trump 52%-44%. This is by far the widest gap in support among college graduates and non-college graduates in exit polls dating back to 1980. For example, in 2012, there was hardly any difference between the two groups: College graduates backed Obama over Romney by 50%-48%, and those without a college degree also supported Obama 51%-47%.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20...education/

It's not surprising, I've read similar sentiments before that higher educated people tend to vote left. Education is imo the best method for longlasting progress in society.

Trump's base consists of rich people looking to be richer, and ignorant people being swindled. Would the working class be better off if they could have access to affordable housing, to medication and hospitals when they are sick, to education for their children? Or would they be better off working as modern slaves for the rich, working hard just to meet their basic needs and not end up on the streets, too scared to go get help when sick because they'll be paying the bill for the rest of their lives, too poor to pay for their children's education so when they grow up they'll be trapped in the same situation being swindled by the same rich people who hold all the wealth. All the while they are voting against their best interest, because sadly they don't know better and the right scares them that they'll be out of jobs and everyone will be gay if the left wins.

[Serdoa]

I'd hope no party will ever try to appeal to someone who thinks of other human beings as parasites.

This right here is the blind spot that the Democrats can't figure out.  This attitude is a lot more prevalent than they realize.  They don't hear it because it's not trendy to broadcast.  The Democrats write it off as "deplorable", trapping themselves into being unable to acknowledge and appeal to it... and then are surprised that they can't seem to dent Trump's support.

T-hawk, I come from Europe, working for a statutory health insurance company. I have also received unemployment insurance for close to a year over approx. 24 years of working now. And I have met many people needing to services in my time. Did I meet those that you call "parasite"? Yes, of course. I met someone who sat at the beach in the summer, not working at all, because "Why should I work, if I gain enough to sit around in the sun not doing anything instead?". But those were fringe cases. The reality was, none of those I met wanted to need medical aid, none of them wanted to be unemployed. Because there are only so many fringe cases that are happy with sitting in the sun all day, most want other stuff too. Going on vacation (we have 5 weeks paid leave per year btw), buying a new phone, a new computer or a new washing machine whenever it is necessary or wanted. Being able to afford Christmas presents.

None of that is possible in our current system, as it is not meant for "parasites". It is however build upon the value of solidarity. Helping each other when the need arises, everyone paying a small part - and some never needing it. That's the idea of an insurance system. But nearly everyone needs medical aid at some point in his life - and in times like these, even well educated people can find themselves in need of unemployment insurance. Which does also make sure that people do not fall into a spiral of being ill / unemployed, being unable to pay bills, losing their flat, living on the streets or doing crimes. Basically, it prevents people from getting into a situation in which the only options left are shit. Which in turn saves money big time, as our jails are not nearly as packed as Americas - not even close.

I don't know if you would consider my words at all, as I don't live in America, but just assume for a moment that in reality, most people are like you and I. They are not parasites. They don't want to. I understand that different countries do have different ways to go about certain things, but I think you know as well as I do that when political parties start to dehumanize the opponent ("Those leeches just want to take our money") something is going very wrong.

Have I mentioned that education is free as well here? And you have pension insurance too, meaning you can stop working when you are old and your body just doesn't want to work the way it used to.

[darrelljs]

This:

they are voting against their best interest, because sadly they don't know better

Does not necessarily follow from this:

Would the working class be better off if they could have access to affordable housing, to medication and hospitals when they are sick, to education for their children?

I think what working class middle Americans want most is jobs, and they recognize that while the government can provide jobs, only the private sector can create jobs.  They also want everything you list above, but not as much as they want a job.  Seems they trust Republicans with the keys to the economy more than Democrats at this juncture in history, and who can blame them?  Democrats vilify Bezos, Zuckerberg and others who built successful, American companies that provide hundreds of thousands of jobs .  I mean Amazon voluntarily raised their minimum wage to $15/hour back in 2018, earning praise from none other than Bernie Sanders.

Or would they be better off working as modern slaves for the rich, working hard just to meet their basic needs and not end up on the streets, too scared to go get help when sick because they'll be paying the bill for the rest of their lives, too poor to pay for their children's education so when they grow up they'll be trapped in the same situation being swindled by the same rich people who hold all the wealth.

I *hate* how the poor are treated in the US.  It's deplorable for a country as rich as America to do so little to help people who have fallen get back on their feet, but what you describe is not as common as you seem to think.  Most people in the US have jobs, and over 80% have either employer provided healthcare or Medicare/Medicaid.  They don't want to risk that, and they vote according to what they perceive as their own self interest.  It's patronizing and downright insulting to wave it off as "ignorant people being swindled".

The real tragedy is that a pro business platform can still embrace universal health care, a compassionate social safety net that recognizes everyone is vulnerable to hard times, and affordable access to quality education for everyone that wants it.  Republicans can't get past the Thatcheresque view that anyone on the dole is so because they are lazy.  Democrats can't get past the Marxist view that anyone with money did so by exploiting the working class.  Toss in "bipartisan" is now a synonym for "traitor" and it becomes an either/or choice .

Darrell

[GeneralKilCavalry]

The real tragedy is that a pro business platform can still embrace universal health care, a compassionate social safety net that recognizes everyone is vulnerable to hard times, and affordable access to quality education for everyone that wants it.  Republicans can't get past the Thatcheresque view that anyone on the dole is so because they are lazy.  Democrats can't get past the Marxist view that anyone with money did so by exploiting the working class.  Toss in "bipartisan" is now a synonym for "traitor" and it becomes an either/or choice .

Darrell

Democrats and Marxism? Things couldn’t be farther from each other. The social democrat Bernie was vilified as a Marxist when he is simply a normal politician on the left wing of a pro-capitalist party. 

Does everyone with money earn it by exploiting the working class? No. Is the working class exploited? Yes. Did Bezos make his billions thanks to exploiting his workers - hell yes. He raised his minimum wage because of pressure from sanders and other senators.

Oh and you’re totally wrong about the government being unable to create work. The government is the only one who could  fund a wide range of jobs from park workers, necessary infrastructure projects, artists, I mean look at the WPA or any other similar achievement. If the republicans had their way, out parks would be wastelands. 

Private enterprise will never work for the beautification or cities, landscapes and our schools. It’ll never work in the interest of improving people’s lives or the human experience. However, sometimes, our governments can recognize these things.

[darrelljs]

I said they couldn’t create jobs, not that they couldn’t create work.

Darrell

[GeneralKilCavalry]

I said they couldn’t create jobs, not that they couldn’t create work.

Darrell

Imagine calling Uber driver, or any other similar low-paying gig “job” a job. If you draw that distinction, that’s work as well.