WW47: Small Mafia Shenanigans

[Amicalola]

Correct and while I'm glad everyone has now checked in, 1 post is hardly better than 0. But since Kaiser and Amicalola are also at 1 post and you were away at game start, I'll let it go for now.

You're right, I haven't said much yet. I'm not really sure what there is to say on Day 1. I guess it's new person jitters, but instead of vomiting out spam I do the opposite and end up second-guessing all my thoughts before I can post them. I'll try not to do this though.

[WarriorKnight]

We could WIFOM this all day, ...

I was wondering this already in the last game, what does WIFOM mean?

Wine In Front Of Me. See here for more info: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=WIFOM

WarriorKnight, do you have a take on how to play the possible roles in this game?

For the most part I agree with Meiz's assessment (at least in theory, I haven't played much WW before). But to be honest I think in-depth role discussion is a complete waste of time, especially on Day 1. There are too many different possible scenarios and it doesn't help us find wolves nearly as much as questioning people and putting pressure on them, especially those not contributing.

[Meiz]

I agree, the roles discussion is very fact based and based on my experience both town and wolves can contribute to that discussion honestly. And therefore I find tells from these type of discussions very null. I'd rather get the game forward from that stage.

[Amicalola]

I will say that I agree that a strong tell for Newbie Wolves might be them too eagerly jumping on existing arguments (ironic I know), so on that basis right now I'm probably most suspicious of Alhambram for being so quick to join the Pindicator -> El Grillo train, and I'm not particularly convinced by their "I'm going to die anyway" line of thinking.

[Kaiser]

I agree, the roles discussion is very fact based and based on my experience both town and wolves can contribute to that discussion honestly. And therefore I find tells from these type of discussions very null. I'd rather get the game forward from that stage.

It will leave a trail for the wolves though they might stumble over later when and if (is maybe one of these two words sufficient here?) they might make a role claim towards the end of the game.

WarriorKnight

For the most part I agree with Meiz's assessment (at least in theory, I haven't played much WW before). But to be honest I think in-depth role discussion is a complete waste of time, especially on Day 1. There are too many different possible scenarios and it doesn't help us find wolves nearly as much as questioning people and putting pressure on them, especially those not contributing.

I am hoping for valuable information here which can be used during the following days, especially in a reveal scenario. But talking know on roles will also help people with actual power roles understand how people would interpret them. A power role could adjust its play according to this information depending on if it wants to communicate something without revealing for example.
You are right that it is unlikely to bring results today, but to be honest, I was not impressed in the other game by the pressure principle instead. Admittedly people became aware of Cyneheard that way but there were also many other bad leads which were ultimately lynched early. Luckily SD picked Cyneheard as his target to keep that game close.
I think the role discussion approach will give us more facts, tidbits and information than putting pressure on someone to post/participate.

Amicalola

I will say that I agree that a strong tell for Newbie Wolves might be them too eagerly jumping on existing arguments (ironic I know), so on that basis right now I'm probably most suspicious of Alhambram for being so quick to join the Pindicator -> El Grillo train, and I'm not particularly convinced by their "I'm going to die anyway" line of thinking.

I feel the pressure approach leads to posts like this one, he is fully aware that he is ambigious in his post as he votes Alhambram for the exact reason he is voting him. I am not convinced this is a tell for wolfiness or not, as he might just have been pressured enough to write something.
That being said Amicalola and all the others, please vote and argue what you think is important, participation is necessary for town to get leads and to be able to analyze the situation. 

I will keep my vote for the moment on you, WarriorKnight, as I still would like to know your take on the different roles. It can and should be fact based so we have a post to revisit later on in the game.
I also want to encourage everyone to give their takes on the available roles and how to play them so we can understand how people look at the roles. It might be a good place to start in case you feel pressured to contribute but do not know how.
Please just make sure to not give away that you might have a role


It definetively brought me to think more about the game situation and my take on the game. This might be obvious for most of you but it helped me, so hopefully somebody can take something away from it.
As it is right now the wolves have quite a information advantage over us, as they basically know a smaller subset of possible town roles present in the game.

Here is the list again, the wolves know which of A, B or C we are playing.

• A1: Mafia Goon, Mafia Roleblocker vs. Town Cop, Town Doctor, 5x Town Vanilla
  
• A2: Mafia Goon, Mafia Roleblocker vs. Town Jailkeeper, Town Tracker, 5x Town Vanilla
  
• A3: Mafia Goon, Mafia Roleblocker vs. Town Mason, Town Mason, 5x Town Vanilla
  
• B1: Mafia Goon, Mafia Rolecop vs. Town Tracker, Town Friendly Neighbor, 5x Town Vanilla
  
• B2: Mafia Goon, Mafia Rolecop vs. Town Jailkeeper, Town Friendly Neighbor, 5x Town Vanilla
  
• B3: Mafia Goon, Mafia Rolecop vs. Town Tracker, Town Doctor, 5x Town Vanilla
  
• C1: Mafia Goon, Mafia Goon vs. Town Cop, 6x Town Vanilla
  
• C2: Mafia Goon, Mafia Goon vs. Town Jailkeeper, 6x Town Vanilla
  
• C3: Mafia Goon, Mafia Goon vs. Town Mason, Town Mason, 5x Town Vanilla
  

I do not have a precise understanding of the power of certain roles, but I would guess right now:
- Roleblocker > Rolecop
- Doctor >= Jailkeeper > Cop > Tracker
- Friendly Neighbor > Mason

That would mean A are the most powerful setups, B are still strong but a bit weaker and C are weak setups. 
With 9 players and only 1 daykill and 1 nightkill, assuming always mislynches we are at lylo:
- the quickest: day 3, the wolves win with a mislynch (as they can kill the 6th townie during the night)
- the perfect doctor: day 5 or day 6 depending on how tie's resolve during lynching (day 5 2* wolves and 2* townies could be still there if the doctor saves somebody every night)
- the delayed: no lynch on day 1, lynch and nightkill every other knight would bring us to lylo on day 4

There are many more iterations and hopefully we will be able to lynch a wolf instead of a townie early to improve the voting odds during lynching.
I want to mention that "the delayed" scenario can only be executed properly if all would vote "no lynch" on day 1 as else the wolves could try to snipe a townie/sacrifice a wolf for a villager kill (I am not sure the latter would be a good play by the wolves though)

[Meiz]

I am hoping for valuable information here which can be used during the following days, especially in a reveal scenario. But talking know on roles will also help people with actual power roles understand how people would interpret them. A power role could adjust its play according to this information depending on if it wants to communicate something without revealing for example.
You are right that it is unlikely to bring results today, but to be honest, I was not impressed in the other game by the pressure principle instead. Admittedly people became aware of Cyneheard that way but there were also many other bad leads which were ultimately lynched early. Luckily SD picked Cyneheard as his target to keep that game close.
I think the role discussion approach will give us more facts, tidbits and information than putting pressure on someone to post/participate.

There is a pressure vote just for the sake of voting (like WarrioKnight is now doing) and a pressure vote based on concrete suspicion (like the votes against Alhambram now). Now everyone has a chance to try to identify if the suspicions are legit, or if someone is trying to take an easy way of hopping along against town. If Alhambram is wolf, the votes can be very telling later in the game. And I think the latter type of votes gets the game rolling on day 1 even if Alhambram would not be a wolf. You can disapprove how D1 went last game, but to me Bob seemed innocent and both SK & a wolf made a push on town-Adrien, which IMO was their downfall later in the game. So that day1 went very well and that would not have been accomplished with role discussions.

[Amicalola]

I’m going to bed so I thought I’d give a quick response now. I haven’t played with these exact rules before, but my initial assumption is that jailkeeper seems the most powerful of the town roles by far, since you can save people early, but also block wolves later once you have solid theories. The big risk to me feels like accidentally blocking a doctor, but that combo never happens with these setups so you’re basically a doctor with massive upside, no?

[Meiz]

But was the prevention of night kill due to your target being saved, or by you blocking a wolf you thought is trustworthy?   But it's a powerful role for sure.

[BRickAstley]

Tally as of post 72:

Lynch votes
3 votes: Alhambram (pindicator, Meiz, Amicalola)
1 votes: El Grillos (Alhambram)
1 votes: thrawn (El Grillo)
1 votes: no lynch (thrawn)
1 votes: Amicalola (WarriorKnight)
1 votes: WarriorKnight (Kaiser)

Voting history:

Kaiser

El Grillo

Pindicator

pindicator

El Grillos

thrawn

thrawn

T-Hawk

Alhambram

no lynch

Alhambram

Amicalola

WarriorKnight

Alhambram

WarriorKnight

Roleblocker

Rolecop

27 Hours Remaining.

Kaiser, your last post generated a false positive vote. It helps if you are going to use red text outside of voting, to put it in quotes so it isn't picked up as a false positive.

[Meiz]

Fixing my incorrect vote Alhambram

Though I have to say Kaiser voting for the Rolecop seems fishy.