WW48: Melllvar's Grand Competition!

[Bobchillingworth]

Bob, what do you think and who would be your second choice for lynching?

I can emphasize with not being around at the deadline. I'm logging off soon myself- that's right, Jerry, I'm doing it! I'm SIGNING OFF! And George is then probably going to be unavailable through the deadline due to circumstances BEYOND HIS CONTROL.

That said, voting "no lynch" is still a sad, useless copout at best, and in the most nefarious interpretation is an attempt to get enough votes for the village to voluntarily surrender its first opportunity to gather hard intelligence. Which is to say, when it comes to my vote, I have NO REGRETS! None! George isn't letting this one slide!


For a second choice, both Gaspar and thrawn belong in the Jerk Store, but thrawn is presumably engaged in ill-conceived role-playing, so lean Gaspar. As noted though George is likely not going to be around to switch votes, even if inclined to do so, so my opinion is probably irrelevant. It's useless, Jerry! Useless!

[Meiz]

What makes Gaspar a scum for you?

[Bobchillingworth]

What makes Gaspar a scum for you?

What, is he like your best friend or something? George already explained this! Scum hunting on the basis of tone vs. behavior and reasoning (yours, or flaws in theirs) is an iffy strategy at best! To rely on it when people are encouraged (and are actively!) posting in character is nonsense! It doesn't make any sense! I believe this, even to my own detriment! They lynched me for it, Jerry!

[Meiz]

I'm asking because even though he talked about tone reads before, I don't think his later play has heavily relied on it. It seems to be on the same level as others. So to me it seems like you are taking this one specific idea from his early post to paint him as scum, while not analyzing his play as a whole. Something in his later posts that has made him suspicious to you?

Anyways, I'm currently voting for Lewwyn, but at this point I'd rather vote thrawn with Pindicator coming close in second. Still, it feels rude to vote Pind before he wakes up and can futher contribute his reads.

[Gaspar]

What makes Gaspar a scum for you?

What, is he like your best friend or something?  George already explained this!  Scum hunting on the basis of tone vs. behavior and reasoning (yours, or flaws in theirs) is an iffy strategy at best!  To rely on it when people are encouraged (and are actively!) posting in character is nonsense!  It doesn't make any sense!  I believe this, even to my own detriment!  They lynched me for it, Jerry!

I don't think its possible for you to be more of an idiot, and if there's one thing I believe in, its the capacity for people to be idiots. And liars.

I jumped on you last game because you weren't very useful, I jumped off you last game because your tone convinced me to do so. Then I basically named all the scum on day one based off tone while you were advocating for some vote-train that wasn't there circle-jerk. The same circle-jerk that had the town make a bunch of terrible lynches. My scumdar might be off, but I'll still trust it any day over a bunch of bullshit easy for scum to hide vote analysis.

Apparently I'm the villager who all the lazy players hide on this game. Lucky me. *pops vicodin*

[sunrise089]

EEeeerrreeetictik, wreeeeee EEEEEEEEeeeeeEEEEE chichitttakakakaka CHEEEE RRRREEEEEE yyyyrrrr. yeeee (eereereer "rrrEEEE chita") *chirp-chirup* ittee chi-eeerrrr-chi'er taka. tichikirikrikittta?
<Sunrise, it feels really strange to be voting with you on Gaspar for completely different reasons. By the specious standards of early Day 1 his Meiz vote actually makes sense to me (basically, "I expect more from you, dude"), but his Novice reaction and vote seemed very scumish drama-for-drama's sake. What do you think about that interaction?>

Oh man, I read that as "speciesist standards" at first and was going to just straight up clear you!

See also my reply to Gaspar below. I get the impression no one wants to read the modest number of posts needed to work their way up to the original Gaspar->Meiz vote. I think "I expect more of you" prods make sense for two reasons - either someone has posted almost nothing, maybe not even checking in, or someone has posted a lot but is ignoring the meat of the game to post nonsense. IMHO that was absolutely not what happened with Meiz. Meiz was one of the more active (but not most active posters) and, again IMHO, there wasn't yet anything substantive in the thread for Meiz to have seriously responded to. That shifted once novice made his tally post and we were off to the races but I keep coming back to Gaspar (and you, to a lesser extent) both prodding Meiz at a point where no player could have reasonably expected to post substance unless it was like El-Grillo WW47 style metagaming.

In terms of voting Gaspar for different reasons, I have a response but I'll put it in spoiler tags since it's just theory discussion. 

When it comes to reasons to vote someone, my hierarchy is Bad Logic/Lies/Inconsistencies -> Activity -> Voting Record -> Tone/WIFOM stuff. I respect some players might have that hierarchy different or even reversed, but to me focusing on tone or "Town-Player X wouldn't do ___" 1) draws on WW gameplay experience of which I have little since the early day of RB WW; 2) is ripe for cherry picking and confirmation biases; and 3) gets conflated anyways in RP-heavy games. In other words I have no idea whether town novice would make a tally post and though I've lurked most RB WW games that doesn't result in a close enough reading to have a real sense of whether posts like that are actually correlated with being scum. I'm also not saying they aren't, just that it's largely a null tell to me.

Moving on, this novice exchange is probably the weirdest part of the game so far to me. Bolding is mine...

I’ve been trying to hold back a bit and not flood the thread, to give stragglers a chance to catch up. The results are disappointing so far.

thrawn was a villager last time and this time he's a wolf. Pretty clearly holding back. Even if he was going to play differently as a villager it would have been more than he's doing now.

Ah yes, “holding back”, nicely put. I do agree. It’s just so lame moving my vote off Gaspar without him ever responding.

You might think I quoted those out of order or that they were made far apart, but no, they were posted in immediate succession!  Did the phrase 'holding back' suddenly turn novel in the 30 seconds between those posts?!

Finally, more sunrise<-->Gaspar interaction, which I'm sure everyone is itching for! [I'm double quoting to break this up but both quotes are from the same post]

As far as sunrise, I play by feel. I don't expect everyone to agree with my methods but I don't play worrying about what others think. I voted for Meiz because I just watched Meiz play two games where he's either inquisitive or trying to lead the village from minute one. He didn't do that here. Im not judging him against your baseline, I'm judging him against his.  Period.

The "your baseline versus his baseline" is pretty much BS dude. I'm judging him against my own percieved baseline of his behavior, and you're judging him against your perceived baseline of his behavior. Yay, we're established that the game is subjective  . But please don't suggest you're some sort of objective arbiter of truth here with respect to his past play.

I have no idea if you're scum Gaspar. You're my number one suspect but it's not like I'm "Lewwyn-on-Scooter-in-WW46" confident here. But for all of your 'town Meiz is an awesome villager' and "he's either inquisitive or trying to lead the village from minute one" you seem unwilling to point to a single %&#* post prior to your Meiz vote where a town Meiz would have made a read, pushed someone, started a bandwagon, etc. I contend it's because prior to your and Commodore's votes and novice's discussion of them there wasn't anything at all substantive to discuss. Please prove me wrong here and quote something.

But I agree that thrawn feels like he's trying too hard.

Who is saying thrawn is trying too hard? Aren't they all actually saying he's holding back and being much less active than he was as town in WW47? Are you again joining a wagon without bothering to read what the wagon driver's claims are??

[Gazglum]

But I don’t find you to be suspicious. Yet. You keep pushing, though, and Omar come at you just for the sport of it.  

I named three I do. A junkie doc. A floppy Flipper. And a quiet loudmouth. Maybe one or two others, but Omar just recently back in the game. He don’t know a Barksdale from an east side bitch yet. Game done moved on while Omar retired. Gotta reorient, you feel.

I thought this was supposed to be a meeting of the creme de la creme? I give these American boys a little squeeze and their bollocks crumple like tissue paper.

Omar's just being a little toe-kisser here. I already know I'm not a murderer darlings, I want to know about the other seventeen of you. Even to a direct question, this hoodlum can't come up with any positive thoughts about anyone? This post stinks like a tampon recycling centre. 

Then Doctor Yum here - 

Also GES's stuff is so lazy it hurts my head but I can't get annoyed with him because he's RP'ing a character I really like.  And generally, people who aren't Rowain who annoy me usually are scum.  So I keep thinking he's not scum because he's not annoying me but he's probably not annoying me because he's really just making me want to re-watch the wire.

This is just bubble brain waffle. And other than that, he's just trying to placate me! Apologises for his flip-floppery but doesn't bring any new thoughts.  "I'm having a hard time", "have to do a re-read". Obviously I've never met this silver fox before, but if I had I might mention that this reminds me of his werewolf play back in WW36 or so, where he spent three days promising to 'get in gear' tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow. 

I like the angry little bald man.

[Meiz]

Thrawn, you mentioned in advance that your play will be different this time. That doesn't explain your single read this game being Kaiser for not participating enough. Who do you want to kill at this point?

Busy + way more reading (double people and more posts than last time) + having to extract info from roleplaying is harder + closed setup is far more guesswork = thought to wait and join when it's easier to skim, get a feel and start putting the pieces together. I also had difficulties in WW46 and some offline periods in WW47. If you want to lynch me based on inactivity, fine, you've seen how that works, and I think a wolf has to be active to play with the dynamics and arrange it in a way that serves him so I don't understand why people think that you can be wolf and just sit back and wait for the game to fall in your pocket. If you really want activity please ask me a questions and I can focus on that - I saw there were a few and will answer them within an hour or two including who I want to kill and I'll also post any other observations I come across.

I'm not here to lynch you based on inactivity, but for the lack of proposing votable targets. I will then patiently wait for your followup post. As for the general wolf behavior, it solely depends on a player, and wolves can be busy as well.

[sunrise089]

Since I doubt I'll get a good-faith response from Gaspar, here's how I'm leaning at ~11 hours from deadline:

*Gaspar is my #1 based on our extensive interactions above. *pops Milk-Bone*

*Thrawn is my #2. I know he prefaced the game with it and has offered some explanations, but I find his play vastly different than in WW47 where he was town.

*Lewwyn is my #3. If Thrawn's play is 180-degrees off Lewwyn's is 540-degrees off. That's right Lewwyn, you came all the way back around and still managed to end up being bizarro-Lewwyn.

Pending even the slightest effort to engage with the substance of my criticism I want to lynch Gaspar, but I would be okay lynching any of these three as things currently sit.

*After that there are the low content guys - Alhambram, Kaiser, and Bob, and the higher content guys with poor signal-to-noise ratios: Cyneheard, Jabbz, and WK. Lewwyn and Thrawn would be here too if they weren't listed above. I don't want to lynch any of these guys unless my top three are totally unlynchable at the end of the day, but given what we have to work with I think all have a higher-than-random-chance to be scum.

*After that I have pindicator and Commodore who are making some quality posts but IMHO have made bad votes or bad readings. I'll also note pindicator pretty much dropped off the face of the earth right after our exchange this morning, so he'll move up this list if he doesn't return.

*The remaining six players have town leans from me at this stage, as they're generally offering good signal-to-noise and/or making what I see as sane and internally consistent reads. Yes this includes Gold who despite few words has offered a lot of signal in his past few posts.

[Meiz]

Sunrise, I feel like at the time of the votes against me the game was in stage of "let's just put votes on someone since we don't have anything to go by". So while I agree there was not much content worth prodding about, I also agree that I had just RP'd due to that and had not talked anything game related at the time. So IMO the votes agaisnt me were not bad and Gaspar has not kept on hammering against me for not being town enough.