[spoilers] Commodore takes Advanced Starting

[Commodore]

From Scooter's diplomacy, I really wonder if he realizes how horrifying Cairo's defensive stack is. Conquering Cairo doesn't happen without several dozen cannon. Doubtfully worth it even without a hilariously treacherous Scooter on the vast northern border.

[superdeath]

That does look like a hard nut to crack. Machine guns anyone?

[Cyneheard]

From Scooter's diplomacy, I really wonder if he realizes how horrifying Cairo's defensive stack is. Conquering Cairo doesn't happen without several dozen cannon. Doubtfully worth it even without a hilariously treacherous Scooter on the vast northern border.

Sounds like my Always War game way back when - Krill had built a massive tech advantage over me, but I just kept on jamming more and more outdated units in my front city and he eventually had to fight through ~200 dudes to wipe me out. Didn't win me the game, but it got me 2nd.

[Commodore]

Exactly. It's not like I couldn't *destroy* Cairo...his cities are coastal all over and I have a huge number of amphibious jans now. But...what's the point? That sucker means there is no way to ever profitably *take* his stuff sans sinking so many hammers into a doomstack that my economy would crash (even more).

So, Scooter, locked in his vision of the game, is going to further embark on his quest to geopolitically resurrect TBS into the catbird seat. Impressive stuff.

I still bear some blame too, should not had taken peace with Scooter for so little land while he was embroiled. Had I taken another two cities deeper, I actually *would* have had enough strategic depth to trade land for longer peace.

[Commodore]

Gearing up for Yet Another Big One. Cannon vs. Galleons, who wins?


I'd say "TBS", but he just took a beating:


In a hypothetical peaceful game, do I win from here? Probably.


...which means now there is only war. Let's see what we can make happen, eh?

[Cyneheard]

So checking the situation, let us know if any of this is incorrect:

- T137, you moved after Scooter, including the galley stack
- T138, you moved before Scooter, including the galley stack
- T139 is when the 10t treaty expires

[Commodore]

So checking the situation, let us know if any of this is incorrect:

- T137, you moved after Scooter, including the galley stack
- T138, you moved before Scooter, including the galley stack
- T139 is when the 10t treaty expires

Wait, he's complaining about this? Cornflakes has played and recaptured cities since then. 

Yes. I usually play first, it's part of the calculus of taking the peace treaty. I've been making a point to play first since our last war, but...
T136, Scooter played after me, moving his galleon fleets.
T137, Scooter played before me, moving his galleon fleets.

He's poised to hit me in every coastal city I own, hell no I'm not giving him first strike. He's welcome to double-move and *not* declare war this inter-turn.

[Hitru]

After lenghty discussion we lurkers suggest the following: You and Scooter extend your peace by 1 turn and keep the current turn order. Is that ok for you?

[Commodore]

After lenghty discussion we lurkers suggest the following: You and Scooter extend your peace by 1 turn and keep the current turn order. Is that ok for you?

So I continue to go first next turn t139, and the turn after t140, but cannot declare war until t140? Fair enough. This will primarily be a defensive war against the horror that is Chuck-armed galleons, but I can swing first in turn order.

If this war goes total it won't matter how badly TBS got mauled in Cornflakes' territory, TBS has this sewn up. My economy is too fragile, and Scooter is just too whipped-down.

[Commodore]

Diplomacy happened, so for full disclosure:

Scooter: alright, against my better judgment... we need to talk about pb53 and how to solve this. I'm not ok with the proposed compromise suggested. I have a proposed solution. Maybe they ran this by you, no idea. have a few mins to talk it through?

Commodore:Sure
Hitru posted something about extending the PT enforced peace for 1t.


Scooter: Alright, so my sticking point is 99% the galley stack. when I played T137 I knew where they were and what their range was. I looked at that and the fact that you hadn't played yet, and "knew" that on the first turn of the war, they would not be on my side of the land strip, and I counted tiles based on that
which meant from the tile they're on now, they can reach some places that they would not be able to were I playing first
and I played my whole turn around that fact
so I know they have 1 movement point left. my suggestion is you use that to retreat them into Raze, then we continue on with you first in the turn order
that way you still get to play first like you obviously went wayyyy out of your way to get, but the advantage is dulled slightly for the first turn
and to be clear, I mean move them back on THIS turn (t138). first turn of the war, they're free to move wherever from there
which still forks two cities. just not 4

Commodore:I can check, I don't know that they have the 1 move left.
I was pretty miserable while playing (food poisoning), need to check.

Scooter: I've got a screenshot that places them 1N of Snare on T137 before you played, and it's 5 tiles from there to your red circle. unless you moved them in a weird order
if they don't have movement left, an alternative might be "they only get 2 movement next turn," but that's probably slightly less good for you
sorry hah, I said "red circle" because I had a screenshot I'm looking at where I drew one. I meant the tile they ended on

Commodore:I'll take a look

Damn he's good at this. This is a wise negotiation tactic, basically "I'm not accepting settlement, but there's just this one thing. I'm a reasonable guy,
just think this one thing is possible?"

We lost an artist when we went no (er, low) diplo games:

Scooter: ok
anyway. I'm happy to give up on the turn order thing if we can find a resolution around those galleys that make their effective range line up more with my expectations when playing the previous turn. that's where I'm at. let me know once you've had some time to look and have an opinion

Commodore: No movement. I guess ask the lurkers how many cities it's fair to fork at the outset of a war, and if the answer is "just two" then we both have a lot of ships to move.

Scooter: er, what? the "2" number is the number it would have been when I played T137 with the belief I would not get double moved
I had every reason to believe that would be the number when I played the turn, and if that was not the case, I would have played differently

Whatever. Scooter can double-move 138/139 and *not* declare war, gaining an extra turn to react. I wouldn't be threatening the core if it wasn't about tying up troops anyway, he's about to wreck my western seas. TBS has played the geopolitics beautifully, he deserves to win at this point, not have Scooter handed a path back to victory.