[Game Thread] WW49: Wizards and Werewolves

[novice]

Even better. Then Rowain is 99% town. Gaz was right, the scroll of the dead is powerful after all.

[Serdoa]

Ok, while I would like to wait and here from SD how exactly this case with pindi and Rowain works, the truth is I just don't want to go through all these posts...

Anyhow: novice

#10: Introduction. Rowain vote.
#13: Scolding Lewwyn for his bad rhymes
#25: Rebuttal of Tarkeels joke vote for him, questioning of Adrien because Adrien didn't want to google what a Grognard is

Of note: It's a very light questioning of Adrien, more joking than anything else. To me it seems more like a welcome opportunity to indulge in meta-speculation.

#29: Meta-speculation about the Grognard.
#33: Meta-speculation
#41: 3 thinks happen:
- "tiny, tiny munchkin tell" on DS for switching around
I made my stance about this clear already and knowing now that DS was a villager I'm looking even more suspiciously on these posts/votes

- Questioning Adrien if he just wanted something to spend time talking about, because Adrien discussing the Grognard but not wanting to research it
So, DS gets a tiny munchkin tell for switching around, but Adrien is only tossed a question? One that novice already asked. I think that novice wanted to appear active here, so he made this post, but he wasn't really interested in pressuring Adrien

- Telling thrawn that discussing whom to RP beforehand RPing that character is pointless

#42: Reiterating the above about thrawn quoting on my vote for thrawn. It "does seem strange and not very helpful" what thrawn is doing.
#51: Fluff
#52: Meta-speculation
#53: Meta-speculation (based on #52) 
#55: Asking Lewwyn regarding his power
#59: Volunteering for Lews power
#65: Questioning DS for his vote-switching

I quote "Not saying you’re evil or anything," - but you did novice, you clearly stated it to be a "tiny, tiny munchkin tell".

#67: Answering Lewwyn who asked if novice thinks Adrien is the Grognard. Which novice answers with a pretty certain no, but also that he finds it odd that Adrien speculated without looking himself. He also states that he does not endorse this speculation but indulged in it anyway because Adrien asked.

I personally find that explanation lacking. I don't like meta speculation so I don't do it most of the time and I think only if it somehow ties into a case. But looking back up my notes on novice, he made quite a few posts about the Grognard.

#69: Fluff (?)
#71: Questioning of SD. I find there is a stark difference between his other post and this. While his questioning of Adrien is in a friendly tone and reads more like musings, here he sends rapid-fire questions without much though for style. He writes he is close to logging off, so that may just be him being in a hurry though.

#74: Answering Gaz who said novice wants Lews power but that is "above his station".
This happens 20 minutes after the above post, so maybe his change of tone has not to do with his time-commitments.

#76: Accepts SDs answer to his question and requests him to give more thoughts on other players.
#79: Explaining why he thinks he is a good fit for Lews power to Gaz.
#84: SD vote because SD has voted others for skating-by but then explains it by RP
#85: Thanking SD for his thoughts on other players (all RP though) and rightly asks SD for his actual game-read of these players
#87: SD explained that all is based on RP, novice switches vote to DS.
#96: Asks Rowain for what reason he votes for me. Asks if it is because of thrawns play in WW46.
#97: Speculation if Lewwyn is restricted or if it is self-imposed and if so if that is to hide as a wolf
#98: Disagreeing with WK on WKs slight town lean on Lewwyn for coming forward with his ability, because doing so is "scumming 101"
#103: Answering me and agreeing that he will try not to ask questions and give potential answers to those at the same time. And that I should remember thrawns play in WW46.
#104: Meta-speculation (graveyard)
#109: Explains that he wanted to know if thrawns performance in 46 factored in Rowains vote on me. Realizes that he could be mixing up the WW-games though.
#110: Asking Rowain if he thinks that my vote on thrawn is also wrong (because Rowain stated it was easy and un-Serdoa)
#154: novice agrees with little of the accusations he reads in the thread.

I talked about this post before, especially the point about him stating that he would state more at a more opportune time, which never came. I mention that several times, but novice never saw fit to actually answer what he meant with is "opportune time" comment but at some point he tells me that nothing more is coming and that was all he had.

Interlude: In #166 we get a tally showing that Rowain is in the lead with 3 votes.

#167: Claims my analysis on Adrien is dishonest. Because I would twist every single sentence Adrien writes into the scummiest light.
Also another sentence on meta.
#168: Attacks Rowain for Rowain stating that Lewwyn wasted time with his attack on him.
#169: Finger of suspicion on me, his vote stays on DS though. And he had issues to just skim pindicators long post (which was post #150, 7 minutes before novices post #154)

I'll just point out that there is 1.5 hours between is post that he agrees with little of the accusations he read and this one. That is to say that the whole timing seems off from the timing. Not that you can't do something else in between or just need time to read posts, but his statement that he doesn't agree with the accusations has to come from somewhere, than he makes a shorter post about my attack on Adrien, an even shorter on Rowains attack on Lewwyn and that it is ...

I also don't like him leaving his vote on DS here. He does raise suspicions about players for their play, but he stays on DS? He calls my case on Adrien dishonest, but DS is the one he wants to keep his vote on?

#172: Re-iterating that it is not an opportune time yet.
#173: If I want him to actually show me where my accusations are dishonest I have to wait till his is on an actual computer.
#197: Replies to Rowain why he suspects him. Not for calling Lewwyn unproductive but for voting him.

Rowain votes Lewwyn with the accusation that Lewwyn is trying to waste time by engaging with him over Rowains vote on me instead of hunting scum. So if you suspect Rowain at this point and you do it for his vote that means you disagree with him that Lewwyn wastes time / that Lewwyns engagement with Rowain over this is a scum-tell. In short: For Lewwyn being unproductive.

I think you can easily agree or disagree with Rowain or Lewwyn here. But novice does neither, but he also does not try to defuse them. Rowain isn't wrong when he says novice is fanning the flames here. Which works, they are both continuing going at it.

#208: Explains why he thinks my case on Adrien was dishonest.

I'll not go again into detail about this. I just point out that his vote is still on DS. He also just explains here why he found my case dishonest, but there is no more engagement. I mean, if you feel that way, would now not be a time to question this players? Have him give reads on others, have him explain certain points. novice is content with telling me how he sees it and that he thinks I could be scum trying to create activity in the thread.

#213: Answering Rowain.
#216: Filler (he responds to pindi giving him points for voting DS, but I don't see any reason for the post tbh)
#218: Answering Rowain.
#219: Filler
#222: Answering Rowain.
#245: Answering Rowain. Stating that he does not like Rowains style but he does not want to paint Rowain as scum for his style.

Bolded by me. Didn't realize till I read it several times, at first I thought novice said he doesn't see Rowain as scum. But he didn't, he left himself a fine opening, to go in either direction on him.

#250: Responds to Gaz who casts his final vote as he won't be around at deadline. States that Gaz vote on Rowain has the advantage that it is not for an absence that could end before deadline. But also states that he probably won't push for a Rowain lynch if the people absent stay absent.
#260: Answering Rowain. States that he thinks that Rowain could - just like I - just pick a fight for showing activity.

I think by now Rowain and I are known for our styles and I am surprised that even Tarkeel - who does not know me from before - suggested that my discussion with Adrien could be town infighting, while novice - who already pointed out that Rowain has a distinctive style - just keeps going with "but it could be the doing of scum".

To note: I don't mean that you can't suspect Rowain or me for our styles. I mean that you have to take them into account and if all you have is basically a "They play like they always do" and "They just want to appear active" then that makes little sense because if we play according to our style and are normally active as well, how is that different than us being town? Answer: It isn't.

#277: novice does not want to rush anyone over the absentees. He would rather vote thrawn over DS but he keeps his vote on DS.

Basically, that is the one really scummy thing, now knowing that both have been villagers. He would vote thrawn, but he keeps on DS? At that point when he posted, thrawn had 5, Rowain had 2 votes, some others 1. It seems to me he did not want to be the final straw on thrawn.

#279: Reply to thrawn that he won't click on a link thrawn posted.
#281: Asking thrawn whats going on.
#284: Asking thrawn if he played as scum and how that worked out.
#291: Asking Tarkeel for his case on SD (with 13 minutes on the clock)
#292: Found the case himself.
#294: Questions Tarkeel if he really meant his case serious as "that case read like 80% roleplay to me."
#302: novice thinks Tarkeel should not use parts of SDs-roleplay against him

---

And so ends D1. I dislike mostly that he engaged with Rowain and me, claiming we try to appear active, but also recognizing that the way we acted is accordingly to our normal-style. Furthermore that he promoted the thrawn-lynch while himself staying absent from it. His engagement with Tarkeel at the end seems just... unnecessary. It's not like he asks him for a more "productive" vote, he just asks for the case, mentions that it seems based on RP and ... that is it. 

I'll go over the night and next day in the next post, those are probably more for myself than anyone else reading them anyway...

[Serdoa]

I indeed haven't fact checked, I'm going to rely on you doing that. More time efficient. I expect the facts, as such, to be correct anyway since they're coming from Gaz. But obviously they'll be subject to interpretation. So thank you for your walkthrough of your process yesterday.

No novice. I won't let you skate by, having me invest my time that is as precious as yours on a weekend, just because you take the lazy route. Let alone that this sentence as is is an impudence, you also try to absolve yourself of actually showing why I'm scum. That's great for you of course, because if you had to show how I am scum, you would be much more prone to making errors.

The worry, Tarkeel, is not that Rowain is scum buddy with Gaz, but that scum could have targeted Gaz directly instead of his protection target, to throw us off the scent.

Anyway I think this points pretty clearly to a scum team with two out of Lewwyn, Serdoa and Superdeath.

Yeah, Tarkeel corrected you already, but I would expect town-novice to have read what we have been told IN GAZ DEATH POST, if you missed it the first time when he told us. You are not interested in any of it, as you are not interested in hunting scum.

novice a hundred times.

(And yes, I am pissed, because I fucking sit here for more than 2 hours now, going through his posts from D1 and he can't be bothered to at least fact-check before accusing?)

[novice]

So every time someone makes a case, you expect other players to fact check every post referenced before supporting the case?

[Serdoa]

And just to take those the wind out of their sails that now would claim I am scum for not answering (you know who you are...), lets look at Gaz post. That also means that looking further towards novice play will be delayed because I want to have a weekend as well - if not in a spa, at least in my bathtub.

(Also, where can I find this Megumin-movie / series? I only ever saw NGE, I still have it on like 13 or more VHS-tapes I think, but apart from that, I never got into it. But I watched now that video of WK in full and it seems to be pretty dumb, fun stuff.)

Day 1 - The Careless Kill
Serdoa tried to pick a fight with Adrien over what seemed to me like minutia. He voted Thrawn, then I think Pindicator, then after Thrawn came back and bleated like a lost sheep, Serdoa returned to put the hammer down on him. I had voted Thrawn too, but I think it was a worse vote once Thrawn had returned. Especially because of something I only realised on re-read:

Serdoa was watching the vote tally closely at lynch, he posted 296 pointing out Commodore’s maths error.

Yet while studying this he didn’t notice that Thrawn wasn’t even voting to save himself? Not very munchkin-like behaviour from Thrawn. But that was when Serdoa became convinced of his evil and voted him, which after Pindis' switch led to Thrawn's lynch on the 0.1 tiebreaker.

(That 0.1 vote came from either Serdoa or SuperDeath, but it didnt' appear on Day 2. So it must only activate as a tie-breaker power from one of them).

The Thrawn vote isn't damning, but it was bad, as Pindi and Adrien said at the time, and Serdoa repeats it next day.

Yeah. I explained my thrawn-vote already. Nothing to add. I read him differently. It is true that I noticed that the vote-tally was wrong. I did not notice that thrawn was missing when I asked Comm for clarification, but that is a point you can believe or not. I do believe that he could at any time have voted to save himself (as I told Adrien before why I think that I was nailing him isn't correct assessment of the situation).

But apart from that, as I told Rowain, he can add .8 to the vote if he wants as well, because while I disagree with Adrien that I nailed him (meaning for me I made sure he dies) I do not in any way dispute that I suspected him and thought my vote good - and now knowing that it was wrong know it was bad.
 

NIGHT 1 - The Greedy Hands
Night 1, Serdoa was clear he wanted the scroll which he is now reluctant to use. I suggested that holding it was dangerous – munchkins killing the owner would silence two strong town voices for the price of one. Serdoa seemed so confident that I assumed he must have the Hider power. But now I think no, he just knew he would not be night-killed because he is a munchkin.

Ok, so the claim seems to be I didn't mind getting the scroll because I don't fear death. That is were Gaz and I obviously differ, he really seemed to fear death, I don't care. As villager I accept from the onset of the game that I get mislynched, night-killed or somehow else removed from the game. That is part of it. So in gist, no matter what my power is or is not, I didn't mind that I could be night-killed. In my mind, that at worst would remove a player that I expected to be scrutinized for his thrawn-vote anyway, so would scum do that? Seems rather far-fetched to me - I simply was not a good night-kill imo.

And for someone so keen to have the scroll, Serdoa now seems reluctant to use it. He also attacked me for talking up it's importance, when he was the one who pushed hard to have it in the first place!

I explained why I don't think it is that strong, I pushed hard to have it so other players don't get a free pass (SD) besides other points. And I used it - and also explained my reluctance (town-item, so all should have a say and I should not use it because one player suggest we could do so).

]He also at this point said that Rowain and I (and Tarkeel) were the people he was not inclined to vote for Day 2.

I explained that already.

DAY 2 - The False Quiet
Serdoa opened with an apparent post-restriction. I don’t believe there ever was such a post restriction. First, a 12 hour post-restriction in a 48 hour day is a pointless and weird power compared to the others we’ve seen. Second, we’ve already had two communication related powers with Lewwyn/Warriorknight, is there really a third? Third, nobody claimed it. Fourth, if scum DID have a post restriction power, why use it on Serdoa? Fifth, I suspect we shall not see anybody else claiming locked-lips tomorrow morning.

So why would Serdoa pretend this? Because his Thrawn vote end of Day 1 looked so bad, he wanted to lie low until the conversation had moved on. And Adrien did ask about Thrawn

I wanted to talk more about your last minute thrawn vote, but it's going to be tough if you can only post votes...

And Serdoa did answer to be fair, in 465. But he was aggressive at Adrien, saying it was scummy to bring it up, and by then Thrawn was half-forgotten anyway.

Yeah, well, it seems the post-restriction is indeed not a ruse. Shocking. Not really more to say here.

At the end of Day 2, after saying Night 1 that Rowain and I were the two people he did not see himself voting for, Serdoa made an opportunistic vote on me once Lewwyn and WarriorKnight had laid hte groundwork. He said, among other things, that I had been over the top in refusing the scroll from Novice and Lewwyn. 

Explained already as well.

ANd when Serdoa unveils his Big Leans post at the end of Day 2, it hedges on almost everyone. Post #627 if you want to read it, but it pretty much summarises as:

• Lewwyn: Fine 
  
• Novice: Neutral 
  
• Rowain: Neutral 
  
• Warriorknight: Neutral 
  
• Superdeath: Neutral 
  
• Pindi: Suspect 
  
• Adrien: Suspect [says ‘I think his questioning of my thrawn vote was mostly him stating that the vote is bad without actually questioning me.' which seems to forget that you had CLAIMED A POST RESTRICTION SER!]
  
• Glum: Suspect for...rhyming, over-the-top mimicking his usual play. 
  

Perhaps it just was my usual play Ser? Albeit with a bit more groove. My play was apparently fine Day 1. Did he dislike that I had reversed my target? Is that why...reversed his target and voted me?

I think I actually made my points pretty clear in that post. Go and read it and ask away. Oh, I forgot, novice isn't doing that, because he doesn't actually care to hunt.

Anyway, this is all minor stuff. Serdoa was caught out again at deadline. 

Near deadline, I moved up at a comfortable lead at 4 votes (Lewwyn, Warriorknight, Serdoa, Pindicator). Then Serdoa switched off me to vote Pindicator, perhaps because he didn’t want wolves all bunched together if I flipped innocent. But when Pindicator’s switch back to Warriorknight put Warriorknight in the lead, Serdoa ran straight back to me, claiming his vote for Pindicator was some kind of ruse???

No, I stated that I now know who really follows through on their pindicator "suspicions" which several players raised imo. Just no one to be exact. And I thought that interesting, especially with novice sitting at the sidelines, waiting how would come out on top.

And yes, I would not have voted WarriorKnight. My read on him was wrong. Nothing more to add.

Serdoa will want to waste time quibbling the margins. Instead I would ask him this - what is the alternative explanation for everything that has happened this game? Since WarriorKnight was scum, what were his teammates doing at that deadline?

novice was bussing him, SD wasn't playing.

[Serdoa]

So every time someone makes a case, you expect other players to fact check every post referenced before supporting the case?

I expect you to scum-hunt. I expect you to read posts and make connections. I expect you to not re-iterate points that have been answered and I expect you to bring your own take. 

And yes, I actually do also check when someone else makes a case and it isn't easy to follow if I agree with the core points. I mean how else do you make sure that scum isn't misrepresenting? You hope that their target is eloquent enough to defend?

[Rowain]

Thanks Serdoa for your posts. I still miss an explanation for the 0.1 tirbreakpower and i still see no good reason why you are so coy about it.

For novice gazglums riddle was the follow up to this.

Scorpion and Frog

Scorpion stings friend frog. Why?

"It is my nature"

Thanks ser glum for your protection :-).

[Serdoa]

Because I don't want scum to know. If I am not getting lynched today, let them guess if I should be night-killed or if that wouldn't work because I am a hider. Or maybe I have that 0.1 power? Then they should want to get rid of me, as with so many near-confirmed town-players it will be hard to get many mislynches in. And you can be certain that I will make my cases, but my vote will be in tandem with Adrien, you, pindi at the end. So if I have that 0.1, better get rid of me.

(And yeah, maybe I am overestimating my importance, I get that. But I am town and I have simply no clue what else is going on, so I go by my gut feeling that tells me not to reveal it. Btw: If you 3 tell me to do it, I'll do it, same as with the scroll yesterday.)

[novice]

And yes, I actually do also check when someone else makes a case and it isn't easy to follow if I agree with the core points. I mean how else do you make sure that scum isn't misrepresenting? You hope that their target is eloquent enough to defend?

Normally, yes. You certainly are.

I don't think me bussing WK yesterday makes any sense. I could have just lynched Gaz instead. As little as 30 minutes before lynch I had declared no real preference between the two, so I could easily have just voted Gaz at the end.

[Serdoa]

Yeah, that pretty much feeds exactly into what I am saying novice. You've not tried to catch scum all game. You just asked a question here, a question there.

5 hours before lynch you replied to Gaz criticizing you not wanting to vote anyone that if we don't believe that there are 4 non-town within the remaining players minus superdeath, then superdeath is a good lynch. 

2 hours before lynch you asked me if I think Gaz is faking his role-claim. I stated my position. You never reacted because you simply don't care. 

31 minutes before lynch, you questioned Rowain why he isn't voting SD. Again, you avoid taking a clear stance, you just try to move players in the direction you want but without being obvious when doing so. 

29 minutes before lynch, you asked why people vote WK, while also stating that you take it that the pindi-lynch is scheduled for tomorrow. I've felt emotionally cornered by pindi and this post pushed me into committing. And I expected some movement towards pindi, your post indicated you also felt that way. But I'm sure, in retrospect it was just a joke on him always being the next day lynch. Because all your prodding is done that way, never direct, always able to backpedal and claim it wasn't meant that way. That's also why you don't want to actually build a case on me or even check yourself and ask your questions, you don't want to commit to anything you could be tied to. 

18 minutes before lynch you stated that you are not quite feeling a WK-lynch. And asked if we don't get enough info from a Gaz vs SD lynch. Again, you are trying to move people in the right direction, but without it being tied to you in the end.

11 minutes before lynch you, asked if you think WK is town, state and I quote "No, I wouldn't go that far. I prefer to lynch WK over Gazglum." - Just 7 minutes before that you preferred a showdown between Gaz and SD and are not "feeling a WK-lynch", but now, all of a sudden, you'd rather lynch him then Gaz?

10 minutes before lynch, you correct your last post, stating "Or I prefer WK over the field, at least. I wouldn't be too unhappy to see Gazglum swing either." - Again, this is not only going back on what you just stated minutes ago, when Gaz vs SD would provide enough information, now you prefer WK "over the field". That man sure quickly moved down in your rankings. Just 8 minutes from "I'm not feeling it" to "I prefer him over the field"... and there has nothing been posted in that time that adds anything to the WK-case.

2 minutes before lynch, you vote WK. No further reason given. You'll claim you hammered him. I say you bussed him, knowing that Lewwyn as well as I were around and could potentially do it ourselves, so better you do it and get the credit then risk it being decided by someone else and making you look really bad.

Yes, you have voted WK off. But the way you arrived there is not that of a villager evolving his reads. It is that of a wolf, scared that he'll get caught if he doesn't kill one of their own.

novice