American Politics Discussion Thread

[suboptimal]

I haven't watched TV during a presidential election in....I can't remember how long it's been. I've generally found that all TV coverage is just a bunch of people breathlessly repeating the same things over and over and over and over and over and bringing out their "latest in tracking technology" (I've seen CNN's "Magic Wall" on the TV in one of the lunch rooms at my office) which is just some spiffed up touch screen gizmo. The only difference between broadcast and cable TV is that the former generally remain more stoic and at least attempt to be neutral (at least in the NY/PA metro areas) while the cable networks throw in quite a bit of pearl clutching and ranting to spice things up.

I've stuck with AP and the BBC websites this election cycle (BBC is getting their election counts through Reuters); they also serve as my primary (inter)national news outlets in general.

[Commodore]

As a note, I'm agnostic about how much fraud actually matters in this case, and even if it will matter how much is provable in court. But sans something radical shifting this will go to the courts. What is fairly clear is that regardless of outcome this election is going to be considered illegitimate by a plurality of the country.

WHAT???

Do you, personally, consider this an illegitimate election? As opposed to 2016, where Trump's margins were probably smaller? Because only Democrats cheat, or something?

This is why Trump's whining about fraud and cheating is so dangerous.

Dude, you have to go waaaaay back before I'm completely convinced on an election being legit and unskewed, I suspect that everyone is cheating all the time at a low level. Clinton's blowout of Dole in '96? My cynicism threshold is way higher than the norm, don't take me as a baseline. But more and more of the electorate are going to be doubting the efficacy of voting as this goes on, particularly when we're looking at the second court-appointed (or court-denied) president in twenty years.

[suboptimal]

City machine politics scarcely exist anywhere outside Chicago anymore.

The Democrats have had some form of one going in southern NJ for quite some time (look up George Norcross on Google).  It's been weakened in recent years but is still attempting to survive.

[darrelljs]

The TV coverage is annoying because they have to fill all the time with something, and most of the time there isn’t anything new.  Try the 538 live blog instead.

Darrell

[Serdoa]

Dude, you have to go waaaaay back before I'm completely convinced on an election being legit and unskewed, I suspect that everyone is cheating all the time at a low level. Clinton's blowout of Dole in '96? My cynicism threshold is way higher than the norm, don't take me as a baseline. But more and more of the electorate are going to be doubting the efficacy of voting as this goes on, particularly when we're looking at the second court-appointed (or court-denied) president in twenty years.

Well, the issue is not with the efficacy of voting. But that seems to be pretty much what the GOP and Trump try to sell the people: Voting is bad, voting is not fair - just put a republican in charge, that is the only way.

It's nothing else than delegitimizing the tools of a democratic state.

[GeneralKilCavalry]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-e...SKBN27L28B

[suboptimal]

Judge Sullivan is not happy with the government on multiple fronts. He's been holding DoJ's feet to the fire in the Flynn case and he's been vexed by the USPS in this one.

[ipecac]

Data is clear that Trump has made big gains among hispanics, LGBTQ (28% support him in exit polls), and muslims, with some increase among blacks. While clearly not actually a fascist or a white supremacist, he is the only one that can include all of these in a coalition with rust belt and hardcore evangelical whites. This makes him dangerous to both wings of the establishment.

[ipecac]

As a note, I'm agnostic about how much fraud actually matters in this case, and even if it will matter how much is provable in court. But sans something radical shifting this will go to the courts. What is fairly clear is that regardless of outcome this election is going to be considered illegitimate by a plurality of the country.I'm sure ipecac has something pithy by Lee Kuan Yew on the situation but I'm going to go with "shits to big, yo".

Too big to achieve meaningful fraud or too big to maintain as a cohesive whole?

Commodore: 'Yes.'

[ipecac]

WHAT???

Do you, personally, consider this an illegitimate election?

Legitimacy is basically dead aside from the educated and idealistic middle class that still want to believe in the system. Pre-election, one side was thoroughly smeared as Russia and the other as China. The post-election mess is just the cherry on top.

At this point it's about power, who actually wins. That's what politics is really about.