American Politics Discussion Thread

[The Black Sword]

It's too early to be definitive, but that Republicans did so well down ballot, even in districts Trump underperformed, suggests Biden was a repudiation of Trump himself, not Republican ideology.  Given the demographics of those voters, their reasoning is far different than T-Hawks.  The 2022 midterms will be interesting  .

I was pretty interested to see Florida vote to raise the minimum wage, at the same time as not backing Biden who has it on his platform. There's probably a more complicated explanation, but I'm going with Florida's gonna Florida.

[Boro]

there is massive support for the government's actions because all the bad apples fall out very quickly instead of getting four years of practical impunity. the dissenters are given electroshock therapy to correct their deviance.

FTFY.

Darrell

That is some cognitive dissonance you have there, believing manufactured rumours.

[Miguelito]

Read what Brick said upthread...and try and set aside some of the baffling things Trump has said.  That wearing a mask became a political issue is ridiculous, no doubt, but even with agreement on the science decisions exist.  Compare the approach between China and the EU, or within the EU between Sweden and France.  Even within the US each state is different, and in my own state South Florida is very different than elsewhere.  How do we strike the right balance between reducing R0 and trying to keep some semblance of normal life?  Remember the US was founded by rebelling against a government they felt was ignoring their needs.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Darrell

It increasingly seems like not only China but many/most(?) east Asian countries, including the democratic ones, have achieved to keep the virus at negligible levels and gone back to normal life. I feel like in Europe we don't even know how exactly that was achieved, I'm just seeing some allusions to less data protection, stricter quarantine, and closed borders. Oh yes everybody's wearing a mask, I'm sure - really if people hate lockdowns so much why do they go out of their way to prolong them as much as possible?
Btw, modern France also was founded by people "rebelling against a government they felt was ignoring their needs" (it's really not that unique a thing) so...

Also they're talking election fraud and voter IDs again. I've touched this before,and at the risk of eurochauvinism, I l'dike to ask again what the US folks would think of this model (like it? feasible?)

1. Every citizen gets photo ID from the state,  free of charge if poor (orjust for everyone,  easier)
   
2. Every citizen is automatically registered to vote (exceptions for felons etc). Before election,  every citizen is notified by mail or some electronic communication about their options to exercise their voting right
   
3. The state issued ID has to be used to verify the ballot. Bit difficult with mail in votes but there can surely be found a way
   

I understand that the union/ states apparently don't really know how many citizens there are,  so that might be a problem,  but not unsolvable,  I'm sure the NSA can tell.
Particularly interested in the opinion of the more leftie/ conservative posters .

This already sort of occurs.  Everyone that drives has a photo ID through the state agency that regulates drivers' licenses.  If you don't drive you'd still go to that agency for an "official" photo ID.  There are also federal picture ID's, such as passports and Global Entry ID cards.  There is no nationalized photo ID card system and I think that people on all sides of the political spectrum would have various objections to instituting one.  Likewise, there are no state-level compulsory photo ID requirements.

As for (2), voter registration and updating is quite easy - it can be done in conjunction with (1) in many places and the USPS asks you if you'd like to register (or update) if you file a change of address.  I don't know about other states, but in NJ (in non-COVID times) all registered voters receive a sample ballot via mail about 2 weeks before any election.  This ballot is clearly marked as a sample ballot, it's designed to appear exactly as the selection panel on the voting machines, complete with instructions, and informs you where your polling location is and what time it will be open.

(3) only occurs (in NJ, anyway) when your day-of signature doesn't sufficiently match the signature in the polling book in the view of the poll worker.

As suboptimal said, the baseline is pretty simple and similar to what you've outlined, driver's licenses are *fairly* universal. Fraud is of course ubiquitous depending on the municipality (Detroit having some two thousand dead people on its voting rolls, etc) but it usually doesn't get a lot of national attention, because in a general election that usually doesn't mean much. It does mean city machine politics are hilariously corrupt in places, but, again, doesn't matter in a huge continent-sized election. The current drama about counting is to see if total differences are down to where that margin of fraud actually matters on the national outcome.

I'm coming back to this because from here it is made to appear like a huge problem - reliably every election the right cries about ubiquitious voter fraud, while from the left I read all kinds of horror stories about purged voter rolls, rejected ballots, mismatching names, how poor people often don't have an ID*, and so on. So I'm interested what a simple and US-suitable solution could  look like. 

* is "everybody has a driver's licence" rather "everybody I know"? Of course not suggesting that you're misrepresenting, just asking whether there is hard data for that. Also, don't you have at least pass a driving test to get a licence? I know that this is a lot easier in the states than here where for compulsory lessons and test fees you hardly go below 1k€, but still....

[darrelljs]

there is massive support for the government's actions because all the bad apples fall out very quickly instead of getting four years of practical impunity. the dissenters are given electroshock therapy to correct their deviance.

FTFY.

Darrell

That is some cognitive dissonance you have there, believing manufactured rumours.

Actually my ex wife is Cuban and I’ve heard several first hand accounts.  Also, uh, cognitive dissonance occurs when someone holds contradictory beliefs.

Darrell

[Commodore]

I'm coming back to this because from here it is made to appear like a huge problem - reliably every election the right cries about ubiquitious voter fraud, while from the left I read all kinds of horror stories about purged voter rolls, rejected ballots, mismatching names, how poor people often don't have an ID*, and so on. So I'm interested what a simple and US-suitable solution could  look like. 

* is "everybody has a driver's licence" rather "everybody I know"? Of course not suggesting that you're misrepresenting, just asking whether there is hard data for that. Also, don't you have at least pass a driving test to get a licence? I know that this is a lot easier in the states than here where for compulsory lessons and test fees you hardly go below 1k€, but still....

Looks like in 2018 it was 84.6% of all eligible individuals, according to the Federal Highway Administration. So take that as you will; it's cheaper to get than your average tattoo.

Talking about a US-suitable solution assumes a couple things; one, that all parties don't actually *like* that ambiguity (you listed reasons for right and left to enjoy it), and two, that's assuming a lot more US-wide coordination than is really preferred. I'm reasonably certain that France, Hungary, Romania, and Germany aren't all sharing the some voting system, and the US empire is debatably more diverse than that.

[Miguelito]

Talking about a US-suitable solution assumes a couple things; one, that all parties don't actually *like* that ambiguity (you listed reasons for right and left to enjoy it), and two, that's assuming a lot more US-wide coordination than is really preferred. I'm reasonably certain that France, Hungary, Romania, and Germany aren't all sharing the some voting system, and the US empire is debatably more diverse than that.

Not for national elections (which would correspond to statewides), but for the EU parliament all have to apply similar rules. So for example the Brits could not do FPTP when they were still participating but had to adopt a list system (ironically giving UKIP a representation they never had at national level). But I admit that probably voter registration is handled by the countries following their usual systems. But for that matter I have never heard of allegations of election fraud nor voter suppression fielded by a serious party here.

But I'm increasingly trying to understand the US federal politics less than those of a country and more those of something like a more integrated EU. With Malta-Germany (or Luxembourg-Italy, w/e), we even have grossly unequal representation like Wyoming-Cali, and no one's intending to do anything about it. And while I have called the US Senate composition absurd in this thread, I admit that I have no good solution for that. What's helping is that EU parliament decisions are as yet perceived as largely unimportant, but that seems to be shifting.

[darrelljs]

But I'm increasingly trying to understand the US federal politics less than those of a country and more those of something like a more integrated EU. With Malta-Germany (or Luxembourg-Italy, w/e), we even have grossly unequal representation like Wyoming-Cali, and no one's intending to do anything about it. And while I have called the US Senate composition absurd in this thread, I admit that I have no good solution for that. What's helping is that EU parliament decisions are as yet perceived as largely unimportant, but that seems to be shifting.

The bicameral legislature was indeed a “Great Compromise” between those that wanted the same number of legislators per state and those that wanted proportionality to population.

Darrell

[suboptimal]

As suboptimal said, the baseline is pretty simple and similar to what you've outlined, driver's licenses are *fairly* universal. Fraud is of course ubiquitous depending on the municipality (Detroit having some two thousand dead people on its voting rolls, etc) but it usually doesn't get a lot of national attention, because in a general election that usually doesn't mean much. It does mean city machine politics are hilariously corrupt in places, but, again, doesn't matter in a huge continent-sized election. The current drama about counting is to see if total differences are down to where that margin of fraud actually matters on the national outcome.

I'm coming back to this because from here it is made to appear like a huge problem - reliably every election the right cries about ubiquitious voter fraud, while from the left I read all kinds of horror stories about purged voter rolls, rejected ballots, mismatching names, how poor people often don't have an ID*, and so on. So I'm interested what a simple and US-suitable solution could  look like. 

* is "everybody has a driver's licence" rather "everybody I know"? Of course not suggesting that you're misrepresenting, just asking whether there is hard data for that. Also, don't you have at least pass a driving test to get a licence? I know that this is a lot easier in the states than here where for compulsory lessons and test fees you hardly go below 1k€, but still....

My personal belief is that the right's voter fraud does occur but at levels so low at a national level that the effect on an election is insignificant as a percentage of overall votes cast.  A PBS-affiliated website ((https://www.pbs.org/weta/washingtonweek/...oter-fraud) lists total number of proven fraud cases since 2000 at 44.  WaPo analysis finds a 0.0025% fraud rate in states with mail-in-only balloting (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/...story.html - warning, paywalled).

Likewise, I think the purged voter rolls issue raised by the left may be legitimate - most of these cases seem to occur in the southeastern states and occur in districts with heavy minority populations, which is going to raise an eyebrow or two even among moderates.  As for the other issues from the left (rejected ballots, mismatched names, etc) I think as with voter fraud on the right the numbers are ultimately inconsequential on a national or even statewide scale.  

Your point on the evidence potentially being anecdotal is well taken.  I personally know a few people who do not have driver's licenses because they live with easy access to public transit (they are mainly within NYC or its direct outskirts).  They DO have state issued ID's which are issued by the same agency as licenses and generally look the same (for conformity's sake) so that they have some sort of government issued photo ID.  I also know that in NJ the identification requirements to get an ID vs. a license are identical but you cannot get a non-driver ID card in NJ if you currently hold an out of state driving license.

[Woden]

A big issue with voter id is cost. Minnesota had a voter id referendum a few years back and it was estimated it would costs the government (state and local) around $80 million over 4 years to implement for something that occurs 0.00004% of the time (since 1979).

Minnesota also usually has one of the highest voter turnout, no excuse mail-in ballots, early voting, and same-day registration. The State basically make it as easy as it can be to vote. Why pay $80M for something that happens 1 in every 25 million votes cast. With a voting population just over 3 million, that is one instance every 8-9 election cycles.

[suboptimal]

Just came across this article from the Cato Institute regarding voter ID's: https://www.cato.org/policy-report/march...er-id-laws

One other possibility is that requiring people to pay for a voter ID card might run afoul of the 24th Amendment (it banned poll taxes). A report from Harvard (http://today.law.harvard.edu/wp-content/...e20141.pdf) calculated the costs of obtaining a voter ID card as between $75 and $175, up to $1500 if legal fees are involved. Is that a "poll tax"? No, but if it's a state-mandated requirement to get an ID and the practical cost is demonstrated to be high enough to be a burden it could be construed as a de facto poll tax.