[Mjmd #56 no players] One ring to find them

[Miguelito]

Wasn't pb52 sort of a donut box, like several rings side by side? I think it wasn't that bad of an assumption then.

Ok Ruff... better than Noble I suppose? But I'd hope for someone less spiky in the south still. On the upside I'm not worried too much about his aggression, as long as we settle our copper ()
Also we have potential to actually outexpand him, and then PRO won't matter as much either. And what we've seen of the map so far doesn't allow for lots of hill plants, also encouraging

[superdeath]

And just like that turn roles and I find our likely victim

Ah, like Superdeath like son. They grow up so fast

[Mjmd]

So its a worse player, but that is actually Vanrober, who has a better leader to combat me with Charlemagne (Imp/pro). I'll do a player analysis after my run. This is probably the worst neighbor to have though. Hope you right about more people to the south.

Ya PB52 was basically 3 donuts smushed together. We had like 4 votes for donut and I thought I started on the inside of the ring with number of available tiles ect. One of the things I figured out is I should just look at land area. That game had several land locked players making donut unlikely (I didn't figure this out for turns and turns). That is why I checked so early in this one and I thought this one was because everyone but Gira who moved had a water start. Anyhow I clearly need to quickly contest hill sites against Vanrober.

[Charriu]

It's also fair to say that in all our fighting in PB52, PRO never was a big factor. Of course there is the factor of deterrence.

[Mjmd]

What are you talking about. My rifles and cav barely got odds on your longbowmen! I just got above average luck when attacking.

City raider praetorian vs an pro archer behind walls on a hill with Guerrilla I gets 53% odds 20% cultural defense. A combat I guerrilla I axe defending same situation the Prat only gets 10%. Both assume 5 turns fortify bonus of 25%. In other words stop him from settling hills! I'm scouting in between us now.

Player analysis part 1:
Lazteuq --- Sitting Bull/Byzantium Phi/Pro
Academy and bulb stuff and defend to UU. Lazteuq played an impressive phil game in PB51. Quick note on any later game UU plays. Your opponents know its coming. They have incentive to attack prior to that. It is why I mentioned wanting a very certain sized map for aggressive praetorians. Hopefully whomever neighbors knows this and aggressively settles up on / attacks early, which is prob the reason for Protective. Choose Byzantium first but I think the aweful starting techs are going to hurt more here without the myst buff and the calendar resource under cap than say PB54 (hi Mig!). Should have chosen a leader first I think.

Jowy --- Gilgamesh/Carthage Cre/Pro
Lot of people want to do the protective carthage thing after Pin/OH in PB51. With the Pro nerf I'm not buying it. Choose Carthage first and had to settle for Gilgamesh as a leader on the way back. I'm not really seeing the grand plan here. Its just mediocre plus mediocre. Another example that probably should have chosen leader first.

giraflorens --- Catherine of Mongolia Imp/Cre
Gira is friends with Vanrober who is playing Cyrus of Mongolia in PB54. I'm curious how much that played in the decision. I think Cha is probably just superior to Creative in most circumstances, but maybe didn't want to strait copy Vanrober. Obviously creatives gives a little more leeway in where to settle. I'm not the biggest fan of the keshik as a UU as your opponents should just build a ton of spears.

Amicalola --- Victoria/England Imp/Fin
Amica has made a lot of improvement in PB55. Victoria may just be the best leader in current iteration of CtH and obvious synergy with Fin getting buff to building banks currently. Hopefully borders Gira or me to the south (although I would prefer not to border two imperialistic neighbors). Very dangerous combo if it goes late and I 5% regret helping get them a ded lurker.

Ruff_Hi --- Wang Kon of Spain Fin / Pro

Protective Spain! Shrug I got nothing here; fine little synergy pick. Could be hemmed in by the imperialistic / creative leaders. Ruff is a great technical player but recently let Civac take over playing PB55 and seems to be posting more here than in PB54, so will see level of engagement.

vanrober + Chumchu --- Charlemagne/Celts Imp/Pro
Nice little explode onto the map and claim stuff combo and rely on protective to both protect and pay for it. Some fancy attacks can be done later with guerilla II. As mentioned probably the worst neighbor I could have had.....

NobleHelium --- Willem/China Cre/Fin
Noble, "Heh I want to join this game to try stuff" - Noble picks boring good stuff while having as many ded lurkers as the rest of the game.......... At least pick spiritual man. I really want a good show off of spiritual in a good players hands. I'm not going to lie part of the reason I picked aggressive Rome was the small chance I bordered. Somewhat curious on the Willem pick vs Hannibal (Cha/Fin). It is possible if they have multiple hunting happy resources like I do that they figured creative was better. Discount to library is a lot more relevant to them than either of the other creative leaders.

civac2 --- Suleiman/Khmer Imp/Phi
Very curious leader choice. I had Suleiman as a backup leader for PB52, but not exactly a tier 1 leader. Phi doesn't combine with Khmer per se other than extra food for specialists maybe. I'm not that familiar with Civac as a player, but I'm assuming there is a plan here. If nothing else they are piloting a civ with one of the best UU in the game and they have one of the better traits in imperialistic.

Mr. Cairo --- Washington/Ottomans Exp/Cha
I kind of like this combo honestly. Cheap unique building. I don't think expansive is that much worse than imperialistic and certainly has more utility late. Interesting choice is actually the charismatic pick. At some point do you really need even more happiness? If my start is any indication there will probably be more happy here than on a Commodore map so I think charismatic wasn't the best choice for most; kind of liking the creative picks even more now that I've though of more. I think I would have liked a different pairing. Literally almost any other pairing with expansive I would buy.

El Grillo --- Nebuchadnezzar/Inca Ind/Phi

I really wanted to try Neb. If Cornflakes hadn't done in PB53 I would have fallen to temptation long before now. Obviously slow slow leader, so El Grillo paired with a civ with one a speeding up factor. Other choice is India which pairs better with Ind chops, so curious if they also have a dry something at the capital (I was also thinking Ind Inca for a while for this reason / bad India start).

[Charriu]

What are you talking about. My rifles and cav barely got odds on your longbowmen! I just got above average luck when attacking.

Oh wow. To be honest I didn't check on the battles in the end of PB52 as they where mostly meaningless for me. I take back everything I said before.

[Mjmd]

What are you talking about. My rifles and cav barely got odds on your longbowmen! I just got above average luck when attacking.

Oh wow. To be honest I didn't check on the battles in the end of PB52 as they where mostly meaningless for me. I take back everything I said before.

I didn't record very many of them, but here was a post during the Cairo reload inquiry (he didn't end up getting because combat had happened).

Went back in and here were the close ones. Obviously had some 90 something percent mop ups as well.

Cav fights
22.9% win
22.9% lose
26.9% lose
64.4% withdraw
68.3% win

Rifle 53.3% win

Celtic protective longbows are no joke.

[Charriu]

Wow, sorry for that. Totally missed that.

[Miguelito]

Not sure if I would assess Ruff as a "great" technician, but he's certainly solid and has a ton of experience. Also seems to dial down on the esoteric picks into actually powerful stuff in recent games.

civac has commented mostly in the 3 games we're playing in , but I recently found out his civforum.de handle (where he is reporting this game). His advice on CF PB88 seems quite solid; from what I understand he plays high level SP, but PB55 is his first MP game. Expect solid mechanics and build up, but maybe tactical mistakes?
Also if he's implementing the civforum meta those guys love cottages, elepults (or even axecats), and rifles. The former two probably have to do with them playing on deity, and it will be interesting to see if he changes his approach for the monarch game. Also even some of the better players on civforum seem to have a tendency to neglect GP, but Suleiman of course does not indicate he's going to be passive on that front. Honestly I love that pick; I consider IMP to be the best synergy for Khmer (EXP Barays... it's 50 hammers for 1 fpt, and even if we count 1f = 2h that's still 25 turns payback, so not really something you want to mass early). How does PHI help him? If we assume he wants to rush construction (again, civforum loves construction), that is helped by an academy and math bulb, which a single library with 2 scientists can get out in just 20 turns (faster if he uses 2 libraries, but I wouldn't).

I think our start is doable with Byzantium, but you are not spared awkwardness of course. Fishing->Agri->BW, build some half useful roads in between or maybe even farm a grassland. But yeah, the Myst beaker is missed.

Also I really don't understand the general enthusiasm for PRO (I'd pick it for Spain; for Celts I'm not sure if I would not just bank on SD's generosity with stone and if I'd be content with that, without synergy I'd really want something else)

[Mjmd]

I don't think protective is too strong in its current iteration. However, I think people like it because its a little of column A and a little of column B (columns being economy and military). Problem is it doesn't do a damn thing to help you develop other than making sure economy doesn't crash which is generally not a concern on Realm maps. It is also significantly worse in the late game than say financial or prob organized. It does help prevent run bys (my knight attacks vs Pin were blunted and yes super promoted units can hold off even cav as seen above), but I don't see it overall except as you mentioned the synergy picks and even then there are better synergies out there. It is probably better than some idiot taking aggressive though so /shrug.