[SPOILERS] Roland and Suboptimal Team Up

[suboptimal]

Just something to get the thread opened.

Any thoughts as to how we'd like to approach our civ picks or the game in general?

[roland of gilead]

Just something to get the thread opened.

Any thoughts as to how we'd like to approach our civ picks or the game in general?

Sub optimally would seem reasonably. 

I know there is a lot of talk about the naval civs but i think there is mileage in the normal strong civs. Well the Builder ones at least. there won't be any naval action really for a while and it will be settled by tech advantage. though you can be sure Thrawn will be looking for something strange like an early surprise rush. say you do rome and australia or china and you ave armadas first or battleships. do we share eurekas or only passed over on completion? I don't know anything about tems except for reading Singaboy and Sulla PBEM 4 2 years ago. 

china rome russia germany 

i also think japan and australia are particularly strong. They work on land and sea. 

I love religion and if we see a chance to get work ethic one of us should. 

we should pick civs that compliment each other. perhaps one good on civics and one good on science. 

whatever we do we should work closely on eurekas and indeed everything. one of us perhaps doing top of the tree and the other bottom? 

do we get to see maps before picking civ?

[suboptimal]

Let's see....

- I agree with you that non-naval civs can have their day on a water map. It'll depend on what civs we get but I don't think a naval civ is required, particularly if it's a late game unit.

- I expect TAD and Thrawn to be military, particularly if they get an early naval UU and/or have a weak neighbor nearby. I also expect that Thrawn's mile-a-minute manner will wear on TAD over time.

- The civ choice and synergies are definitely important. What synergies we choose will definitely matter. I agree with the idea that pairing a cultural and a scientific civ could be one way of doing it. My experience in SP and MP games is that civics, not techs, are the limiting factor since is harder to obtain than and policies can help one catch up in science. Splitting the trees can work to some degree but I think we need to see what our civ choices are.

- Regarding techs and civics, one teammate will get the eureka/inspiration automatically when the other completes the tech or civic. One thing I don't know is whether the normal age dedications of Free Inquiry and Pen & Paper are triggered in this instance. That could make for some interesting dynamics with the ages.

- I'm not that big on religion in MP situations. I do believe they are useful if you are the first to a GP (or even the 2nd), but the cost of getting the religion needs to be weighed about what you're not getting in the process. Thrawn's push with Work Ethic in PBEM 19 is atypical - that was an unexpected occurrence by the mapmaker(s). I am curious to see how Ichabod attempted to use WorK Ethic in PBEM 18, but that will need to wait until that game is over.

- The naval games in the past have generally been a race to frigates. I think TAD's "stated preference" (can't tell if he was joking or not) for Spain is the fact that they get fleets and armadas at Mercantilism. While Spain is "meh" in all other aspects of the game, early fleets/armadas effectively puts their navy 1-2 eras ahead.

As is my usual manner I had a bit of a bonkers idea regarding water maps - one of us could elect to not settle anything coastal, effectively cutting that civ off from naval invasion. If one of our civs is China that's definitely doable since they get canals at Masonry. Like I said, bonkers, but if one of our civs doesn't need to worry about naval builds that's going into infrastructure and home defense.

[roland of gilead]

Let's see....

- I agree with you that non-naval civs can have their day on a water map.  It'll depend on what civs we get but I don't think a naval civ is required, particularly if it's a late game unit. 



- I expect TAD and Thrawn to be military, particularly if they get an early naval UU and/or have a weak neighbor nearby.  I also expect that Thrawn's mile-a-minute manner will wear on TAD over time.

AGREED TAD DOESN'T TAKE MUCH IN THE WAY OF ADVICE AND HE IS GOING TO GET LOTS. THEY ARE BOTH AGGRESSIVE AND WILL ATTACK AS EARLY AS POSSIBLE.  


- The civ choice and synergies are definitely important.  What synergies we choose will definitely matter.  I agree with the idea that pairing a cultural and a scientific civ could be one way of doing it.  My experience in SP and MP games is that civics, not techs, are the limiting factor since is harder to obtain than and policies can help one catch up in science.  Splitting the trees can work to some degree but I think we need to see what our civ choices are.

CHINA CAN ADVANCE IN CIVICS GIVEN PEACE FOR A WHILE. 

- Regarding techs and civics, one teammate will get the eureka/inspiration automatically when the other completes the tech or civic.  One thing I don't know is whether the normal age dedications of Free Inquiry and Pen & Paper are triggered in this instance.  That could make for some interesting dynamics with the ages.

- I'm not that big on religion in MP situations.  I do believe they are useful if you are the first to a GP (or even the 2nd), but the cost of getting the religion needs to be weighed about what you're not getting in the process.  Thrawn's push with Work Ethic in PBEM 19 is atypical - that was an unexpected occurrence by the mapmaker(s).  I am curious to see how Ichabod attempted to use WorK Ethic in PBEM 18, but that will need to wait until that game is over.

WORK ETHIC HAS CHANGED THINGS HERE BUT WE NEED TO ASSESS IF WE ARE LIKELY TO BE FIRST TO ANY RELIGION. THE LAST 2 PBEM HAVE SEEN STRONG SHOWINGS FROM THE PLAYER WITH IT. CERTAINLY PERHAPS NOT WORTH TAKING RUSSIA JUST TO GET THOUGH. 

-  The naval games in the past have generally been a race to frigates.  I think TAD's "stated preference" (can't tell if he was joking or not) for Spain is the fact that they get fleets and armadas at Mercantilism.  While Spain is "meh" in all other aspects of the game, early fleets/armadas effectively puts their navy 1-2 eras ahead. 

YEAH THIS IS INTERESTING AND WOULD BE JUST LIKE THEM. 

As is my usual manner I had a bit of a bonkers idea regarding water maps - one of us could elect to not settle anything coastal, effectively cutting that civ off from naval invasion.  If one of our civs is China that's definitely doable since they get canals at Masonry.  Like I said, bonkers, but if one of our civs doesn't need to worry about naval builds that's going into infrastructure and home defense.

LOVE THIS IDEA. LOVE CHINA. POSSIBLE EARLY STONEHENGE AS WELL...... NORMALLY AN AWFUL WONDER BUT HERE IT COULD PAY FOR IT'S SELF VERY QUICKLY. 

What numbers do we pick? in the order.

[roland of gilead]

I had considered not settling the coast but rejected it as it just leaves you in trouble when you do want to attack. This solves it though canals are a bit of a waste of production. imagine a lake city with a canal to the sea full of hidden ships.

we should maximize cities and plan settling carefully not to waste space. that makes Australia a good choice.

shuffle more will be annoying and we will have to work together on eurekas and revealing the path.

[suboptimal]

Based on the posts we're 2/7 in the turn order (you're 2) and 3/6 in the pick list.

One other off the wall idea with canals & builders is the Aztecs - their builders can put charges into districts (see my PBEM 10 reporting, though builder-farming city-states under current meta is a ).

I agree that we should attempt to maximize city placements. Note that IIRC teammates do not get adjacency benefits from each other's districts, improvements and wonders.

Religious Australia might be one way to go about an early religion, though I think that Australia might be better off as a // engine given the higher amount of high appeal tiles (personally I'd be curious to take Australia for another spin). Mapuche might be interesting as a focused civ (perhaps in conjunction with Korea on the science side of things). Actually, pairing Spain with a religious civ would be...suboptimal ... but could be interesting once Spain was converted. Egypt can't be overlooked in this situation, either - trade routes between teammates are international and could make Egypt a generating machine, plus Sphinxes for and Another thing - Kongo gets all of the religious beliefs of any religion in its territory. Kongo + religion w/ DotF and Church Property is gimmicky but doable.

What naval civs do we consider to good to pass up? With the Frigate race Indonesia can get early Frigates with Jongs at Mercenaries. Japan has a good coastal bonus but not much else.

So, some potential pairings off the top of my head:

Australia + ?
Spain + religious (I know I know but Russia?)
Mapuche + Korea
Egypt + Indonesia?
China + ?

Any others?

[roland of gilead]

australia and religion go well as the appeal helps. Russia always good for religion and culture.

religion will be situational so perhaps best to go for china or Australia who are flexible with or without.

i don't know indonesia.

with australia or china perhaps germany?

[roland of gilead]

let's do it one at a time. See who we get first pick then talk about second.

egypt are a bit situational and need some floods ideally. I also like domestic trade routs but that can be done initially then later international.

[suboptimal]

I played Indonesia in PBEM 14. I suzerained Nan Madol early in that game and my culture was stupid until Woden razed the city. Their abilities are:

- coast and lake tiles provide +0.5 adjacency for HS, Campus, TS and IZ's, +1 amenity to EC's
- Gitarja may purchase naval units with faith. City centers adjacent to coast & lake tiles get +2 per turn
- Kampung can be built at Shipbuilding, must be built next to a sea resource. +1 per adjacent fishing boat, +1, +1 housing, additional housing and deeper in the trees
- Jong: frigate replacement available at Mercenaries. No resource cost, 5 movement, shares movement with all units in formation, 300. For example, a if you have a Jong linked up with a great admiral, embarked battering ram and embarked swordsman the entire stack would move at 6MP instead of being limited to the embarked movement of 2.

Australia + religious Indonesia could be interesting...

[roland of gilead]

I played Indonesia in PBEM 14.  I suzerained Nan Madol early in that game and my culture was stupid until Woden razed the city.  Their abilities are:

- coast and lake tiles provide +0.5 adjacency for HS, Campus, TS and IZ's, +1 amenity to EC's
- Gitarja may purchase naval units with faith.  City centers adjacent to coast & lake tiles get +2 per turn
- Kampung can be built at Shipbuilding, must be built next to a sea resource.  +1 per adjacent fishing boat, +1, +1 housing, additional housing and deeper in the trees
- Jong: frigate replacement available at Mercenaries.  No resource cost, 5 movement, shares movement with all units in formation, 300.  For example, a if you have a Jong linked up with a great admiral, embarked battering ram and embarked swordsman the entire stack would move at 6MP instead of being limited to the embarked movement of 2.

Australia + religious Indonesia could be interesting...

that's very strong. Early pantheon almost certainly and that's just a start.

i think it will get snapped up but lets see.