American Politics Discussion Thread

[Charriu]

Empires and democracies rarely go from peak to ruins governed by dictators. Empires rise and fall over time. Systems slowly weaken to the point of collapse. The failure of an elected body to stand up to a leader when that leader only cares about their power has been the downfall of more than 1 democracy. Never take freedoms for granted and assume nothing can happen.

I'm not saying Trump will end up a dictator, but the pattern of a president pushing his power with impunity is not a good precedent. It may not be today, but blatant attempts at voter suppression and pure tribalism is not a good sign. Neither is using power to try to get other countries to help influence your rule.

I would say this forum has more history nerds than most political conversations. We all know things change.

Remember when Obama said I have a pen? thats pushing power...And I see that  many people see the request for ID and beeing and american citezen like voter suppresion, and is blatant because democrats say (they say trump killed all covids, which is not true) at least were i live everyone of us in the day of vote we go to the pols with our ID's and vote.

What power used Trump to influence his rule? Rusia? well even the Rusia colusion was true, Trump wasnt in power then. Yes the times are chanching and after 8 years of a democrat president there was a republican one, and the dems talked about impeach even before he was invested, that you can call hatred.

 1.Why are you so invested into trump? What do you know about trump?

2 Do you know how many people have been detained in concentration camps on the border with mexico?

3 How many right-wing militias have been emboldened by trump?

4 Trump is the physical representation of all of the worst qualities of America.

I will answer to GKC and this will my last answer here, because I see he is civil not like my long friend Bob which uses personal atacks even he doesnt answer to any points I make.

<BrickAstley snip>Racial Slurs are not tolerated</snip>

So...
1.I am not invested at all , I just read here and threre and usualy I like a good debate because i want to see what people think so I think as you was free to say alots of things I can say something without beeing invested. Second part of the question . I know mostly what the left is saying about Trump and I read alot about his history.

2. I dont know alot but i remeber a picture with a child in cage and they said is Trump fault and that picture was Obama legacy. I supose now is necesary like before to check the people which get in the country , because even many democrats saying USA is not great people are flocking to get in.

3. Well I supose there are alot and are burning down the big cities under democrat leaderships.Must be the right wing, why else they burn bussines owned by minorities...

4. Trump is a product of the left, remember he was a democrat till 2009 big donnor for Clinton campaign(if I remeber right) and he fights with the weapons left uses and because of that the left hates him. I never heard Bush saying a thing about Obama presidency , and Obama has so many opinions even spying on Trump campaign so you see left realy hates what left does and when happens to them they cry this people bad  , hurt me , this guy answering back, me dont like that I like jst me talking.

I still know which term was used there and it's a term one usual hears from a very specific group.

[mackoti]

I still know which term was used there and it's a term one usual hears from a very specific group.

but I dont know what you are saying or Brick, and what group is using what word..so please tell me Chariu so I can defend myself or correct what i said if I said something bad..

[Bobchillingworth]

You guys all know Ipecac isn't white or even vaguely US-connected, right?

Have you met him in person? Looks to me like he's located around LA.


Regardless, I don't think I've specifically called him a white supremacist before; variations of the sort of fascist ethno-nationalist ideology associated with the "alt-right" in the U.S. are present in several nations and populations.

[Commodore]

You guys all know Ipecac isn't white or even vaguely US-connected, right?

Have you met him in person?  Looks to me like he's located around LA. 

His commitment to being from Singapore is certainly total enough for me; I've been in PBEMs with him and that's what the time slots square to. Calling an ethno-nationalist's politics from outside of the US cultural hegemony "alt-right" strikes me as rather provincial, isn't the US alt right some kind of vague Extremely Online LARP?

[GeneralKilCavalry]

unfortunately, the US alt-right has become far more than a vague Extremely Online LARP, it's become a very specific, real-life, national-scale LARP.

[Bobchillingworth]

That would be rather provincial, but that's why I said "variations of the sort" and "associated with the alt-right in the U.S.", to indicate there's a constellation of different ideologies with enough commonalities to be comparable with those most familiar to Americans, one or more of which ipecac presents as being affiliated with. That doesn't mean he's literally a member of the somewhat nebulous "alt-right" from the U.S.

Though I'm not sure I'd say that Singapore, if that's where ipecac actually lives, is beyond the reach of American culture either; we are, after all, discussing U.S. politics, in English, on a forum overwhelmingly dedicated to Western media products, thanks to the globalizing power of the Internet. Which is to say that there's little reason to believe that anyone here is fundamentally clueless as to what the alt-right represents in the U.S., nor ethno-nationalism more broadly.

As for the alt-right, as you are probably aware, there have been numerous armed rallies and acts of violence, sometimes lethal, perpetrated by individuals who subscribe to the ideology, so I don't think calling it "extremely online" is accurate, other than that it's very active on the internet.

[Serdoa]

I actually wanted to post to some of the stuff here, but whatever:

1) If you use race/religion as a derogatory you are a racist / white supremacist / alt-right / nazi / neo-nazi... you know, I don't care what you'd like yourself be called and I don't think there is any need on this board (or really anywhere) to discuss the finer points of the exact kind of dehumanization, racial slurs or whatever else your ideology stands for.

2) If you subscribe to the idea that some people are inherently worse than you, less smart, less strong, less whatever, no matter if that are those believing in some different god, have a different skin color, a different gender, live in a different country or have a different political stance, then you are part of the group described under point 1)

3) If you believe that any of the above applies to you or to someone else because you are or he is a conservative... you are in need of education to learn the difference between conservatives and assholes.

1) Trump killed a VERY prominent Iranian general back in January (yes, that was this year). Think "Eisenhower before he ran for President" level of respected within Iran. One more source of bad blood between the US and Iran.
2) Many of our allies in the Mid East are very opposed to Iran - including the Saudis and the Israelis. They'd be happy with the US attacking Iran in some fashion.
2a) However, Iraq would not be happy, so that would be a problem.

Which besides politics also (and afaik mostly) has to do with religion, as there are different groups of Islam. Turkey is involved in this as well, as is Syria. Basically that whole region is fucked because first US overthrew mostly pro-western "dictatorships", so now we have mostly religious dictatorships. That sure worked out great...

(And yes, that whole mess is much more complicated certainly and I am surely not an expert in it.)

Keep in mind: Iran is a MUCH tougher nut to crack than Iraq was. It's larger, more populated, better armed, and has a lot of mountains (Iraq's mountainous regions - the Kurdigh north - was allied with us and had well-armed militias; we wouldn't have significant allies within Iran). And the European community would be aghast at such actions, especially from a lame-duck Trump without any provocation.

Well, even if Trump would have gotten 4 more years we would be aghast. Attacking Iran would destabilize that region even more - and apart from the people living there, the next ones being affected by that would be Europeans. America itself would mourn the few dead soldiers they'd encounter but other than that, you guys don't have to take responsibility for your actions. Of course, America probably could sell more of their fracking gas if they did destabilize that region (-> see South America), so unfortunately this is only a matter of time, no matter the president I fear.

[Serdoa]

One other point: Please educate yourself who was allied with Hitler. Especially in Africa... maybe some are shocked at what you learn, maybe some will stop believing that you have to be white to be a Nazi. Next stop: Learn more about Nazis than "They are the bad guys". Learn about the ideologies they stand for, things they've done, how they convinced many people (not just some Germans) to follow that ideology and how they gradually became more and more the monsters you all know now from your films.

And then maybe some understand why we in Germany say "Resist the beginnings".

[Boro]

I actually wanted to post to some of the stuff here, but whatever:

1) If you use race/religion as a derogatory you are a racist / white supremacist / alt-right / nazi / neo-nazi... you know, I don't care what you'd like yourself be called and I don't think there is any need on this board (or really anywhere) to discuss the finer points of the exact kind of dehumanization, racial slurs or whatever else your ideology stands for.

2) If you subscribe to the idea that some people are inherently worse than you, less smart, less strong, less whatever, no matter if that are those believing in some different god, have a different skin color, a different gender, live in a different country or have a different political stance, then you are part of the group described under point 1)

3) If you believe that any of the above applies to you or to someone else because you are or he is a conservative... you are in need of education to learn the difference between conservatives and assholes.

1) Trump killed a VERY prominent Iranian general back in January (yes, that was this year). Think "Eisenhower before he ran for President" level of respected within Iran. One more source of bad blood between the US and Iran.
2) Many of our allies in the Mid East are very opposed to Iran - including the Saudis and the Israelis. They'd be happy with the US attacking Iran in some fashion.
2a) However, Iraq would not be happy, so that would be a problem.

Which besides politics also (and afaik mostly) has to do with religion, as there are different groups of Islam. Turkey is involved in this as well, as is Syria. Basically that whole region is fucked because first US overthrew mostly pro-western "dictatorships", so now we have mostly religious dictatorships. That sure worked out great...

(And yes, that whole mess is much more complicated certainly and I am surely not an expert in it.)

Keep in mind: Iran is a MUCH tougher nut to crack than Iraq was. It's larger, more populated, better armed, and has a lot of mountains (Iraq's mountainous regions - the Kurdigh north - was allied with us and had well-armed militias; we wouldn't have significant allies within Iran). And the European community would be aghast at such actions, especially from a lame-duck Trump without any provocation.

Well, even if Trump would have gotten 4 more years we would be aghast. Attacking Iran would destabilize that region even more - and apart from the people living there, the next ones being affected by that would be Europeans. America itself would mourn the few dead soldiers they'd encounter but other than that, you guys don't have to take responsibility for your actions. Of course, America probably could sell more of their fracking gas if they did destabilize that region (-> see South America), so unfortunately this is only a matter of time, no matter the president I fear.

I recall migrants at Keleti Pályaudvar, and sure as hell the americans did nothing besides sitting in their armchairs and trying to dictate how we deal with the mess they made. Not a finger was lifted besides training 5 moderate fighters against the islamic state, and bombings of questionable efficiency.

Regarding point 2 - are you aware of it's relevance to the world anti-imperialist struggle? There is a variation of it where "country B people dont get paid as much because they dont work as much / are lazy"
A variation of piracy "Country B players steal from our companies" despite your companies often not even bothering to offer them translations, and therefore not considering them markets worth pursuing.
And denial: "but the prices in country B are lower so its okay to not pay them as much" which is false, the prices are either the same (literally every cultural product) or not proportionately lower.

Oh and Superdeath, there was a retaliatory missile strike on a joint irak/US base, that didn't cause deaths, but damaged equipment and was warned by the iranians themselves.

[ipecac]

His commitment to being from Singapore is certainly total enough for me; I've been in PBEMs with him and that's what the time slots square to. Calling an ethno-nationalist's politics from outside of the US cultural hegemony "alt-right" strikes me as rather provincial, isn't the US alt right some kind of vague Extremely Online LARP?

At some point it's no point arguing with a cartoon, provincial worldview. I appreciate your efforts, but there's no need to justify me to these clowns.

The ethnonationalism of Asian countries is well known. China, Korea and Japan are racially close but hate each other for a thousand years, look down on most other races, immigration policy strictly controlled etc. Are they all nazis? Is Lee Kuan Yew nazi? Is Xi a fascist? Are the Koreans alt-right? There are more things on earth than in their philosophy.

Being discriminatory based on ethnicity, race, religion etc is basically universal in human cultures. Liberal westerners think they have transcended all this and become some sort of paragon. Instead hatred tends to be conserved, and their animosity is instead based on class or ideology, e.g. 'redneck', 'parasites', 'deplorable' etc.

"I don't hate people based on race, so I can hate Trump supporters or people of T-Hawk's political views and I'm still a paragon" lmao. Look at people like Nicolae, downright nasty and hateful but so self-righteous.