American Politics Discussion Thread

[Bobchillingworth]

And Obama is a right-winger. Read his new memoir, it reeks of the usual right wing fallacies. Obama deserves The Hague, just as Bush before him, and Clinton before him, and bush 1 before him.

That's a little extreme, I think. I haven't read Obama's memoir, but I did read his interview with Jeffrey Goldberg (who, on reflection, you'd almost certainly immediately dismiss as a neocon himself), and to call him a right-winger is a very broad interpretation of the term.

I'm not going to shill for Obama's foreign policy, because obviously mistakes were made, but I really don't think it's comparable to Bush Jr. Same with Clinton and even Bush Sr., for that matter.

[mackoti]

So Obama is a realy right wing supremacist as he started more wars in midle east then Trump which for example started none and even retreat some units from there.

And dont gave me the he killed some general, the point is  I think he is the only american president i know since Reagan which didnt started a war in midle east so using your logic he isnt a right wing at all.

Reagan did contra in Nicaragua and plenty plenty of other foreign intervention. He increased the military budget by enormous amounts. Also you’re literally using a logical fallacy, I said if A then B, that doesn’t mean if not A then not B. Before uttering the words logic, try to learn some. And Obama is a right-winger. Read his new memoir, it reeks of the usual right wing fallacies. Obama deserves The Hague, just as Bush before him, and Clinton before him, and bush 1 before him. Obama led Syria, Lybia to ruin, and increased troop deployment in Iraq. He bombed Doctors Without Borders, and committed enough war crimes to earn him a hearing in a war crimes court.

Trump attempted a coup in Venezuela, massively increased support to saudis in Yemen, and led a relentless drone warfare campaign over Syria and Afghanistan. 

Every US administration since Truman has started unnecessary conflicts or supported genocidal tyrants worldwide.

I said since reagan  becasue i realy dont know what happened on his time or with the prezidents before him. I knew  just from Bush sennior and every single of them started at leas a war and yet although you wanna paint Trump so bad he didnt started  a war. His predecesor let him several wars but none was his doing.

And BoB as usual makes me laugh , the arab spring, the Calif state what Obama done was just a mistake and what Trump done are monstruos atrocities.

[civac2]

@GKC: I appreciate your righteous anger but calling people right-wing (like an insult) neither clarifies anything nor persuades anyone. The term used in this manner is not a useful analytic category. There are right-wing groups which are staunchly anti-war (Libertarians, Paleo-Conservatives (stupid term)). Conversely, mainstream liberals have adopted some amazingly jingoistic views (in particular vs Russia) in recent years. Historically, anti-war sentiment was more common on the left even the center left but right now I'm not so sure.

I also don't understand the point about right-wing hegemony. Can you explain what you mean by that?

[Miguelito]

Obama led Syria, Lybia to ruin, and increased troop deployment in Iraq.

Isn't the general critique of him that he didn't bomb Syria enough? And in Lybia, as far as I remember he just followed UK/France in leading it to ruin, if that is your interpretation. (While I was very much against the western bombing there as by general rule, I don't really like the idea of always just saying the Americans broke it. After all, who actually did that were locals in the first place, obviously a consequence of a society broken by decade long brutal dictature. Of course whe western intervention made it worse as per usual. Relatedly, I have family ties to Chile; when I mention that with (older) people here in Germany it doesn't take 2 seconds for them to start with the coup by the US, as if it had been a foreign invasion. But I've got to know the Chilean fascists who support it to this day).

No absolve for Obama on the drone wars though. But on your take of him as a right winger, how would you assess him domestically? I think the biggest issue is the botched Obamacare? Was that due to his own preference, or was the 2008/2010 senate just pretty right wing even on the democrat side?


Btw Darell I have never heard of anybody who would not attribute the Iraq war to anything but imperialistic aspirations and plainly oil, spare a few politicians and interested news outlets. If it's a conspiracy theory it's pretty universal (also well-documented).

[ipecac]

It's part of our animal side, so stop being self-righteous because you haven't transcended that.

Again, what is the point you try to make? The moment you realize that something is part of you is the moment you start to choose if you follow the urges of this part or not. I KNOW that I have racist tendencies in me. I had a knife at my neck from a Turkish guy and I know that I do view people resembling this type more carefully now - I can't help it, it is an automatic reaction. But it is my choice how my non-automatic reaction that follows is. It is my choice if I scream "Lock them up" or blurt out that "They are all the same". It is my choice if I let my behavior be influenced. 

Good, I think we can have a real conversation now. What's my point?

1) A lot of it is automatic reactions, and you shouldn't be hating others or yourself for that.

2) You shouldn't go to either extreme. One extreme is to not try to let your animal side loose, the other is to repress it completely. What people like Nicolae want is for people to stop being openly racist. In practice, this means bottling up all the hatred, anger and fear until the pressure is too high and it blows up on a societal level.

There needs to be ways for people to vent safely. The medieval church didn't try to stamp out prostitution, because it was better than no outlet.

I said earlier it's hard to decide where to draw the line. Well, trying to justify being racist is past that line in any place that isn't a complete shithole.

Life is not a fairy tale where there is one Good choice and that will lead to a happily ever after. There's a choice of evils, and some are lesser in the long run.

[ipecac]

. And Obama is a right-winger. Read his new memoir, it reeks of the usual right wing fallacies. Obama deserves The Hague, just as Bush before him, and Clinton before him, and bush 1 before him. Obama led Syria, Lybia to ruin, and increased troop deployment in Iraq. He bombed Doctors Without Borders, and committed enough war crimes to earn him a hearing in a war crimes court.

Trump attempted a coup in Venezuela, massively increased support to saudis in Yemen, and led a relentless drone warfare campaign over Syria and Afghanistan. 

Every US administration since Truman has started unnecessary conflicts or supported genocidal tyrants worldwide.

Is this going to provoke another wall of text?

Why did you vote for Biden then if he's Hague-worthy too and will turn out to be a right-winger?

[darrelljs]

Look I get e.g. Bob (although I wish he wouldn’t get personal ), he has a consistent viewpoint that generally makes sense and for the most part is fighting a fight I agree with.  But when you declare war on the middle you are basically saying you don’t care what people want, you’d rather just impose you view on the world by any means necessary.  Five links in I stopped; you are making a possibilist argument that occam’s razor rejects.  I don’t have the interest or energy in discussing further, I can’t change your mind and you certainly won’t change mine.

Miguelito, I suggest reading Plan of Attack by Bob Woodward.  There was a predisposition to invade before 9/11, but the Bush administration honestly felt Iraq was a threat, had weapons of mass destruction, and that regime change would lead to a safer world.  Energy security was always a huge consideration, but the US didn’t directly profit from Iraqi oil, and import levels from Iraq never really changed that much.  It was a crime of stupidity and poor judgement, not avarice.

Darrell

[GeneralKilCavalry]

. And Obama is a right-winger. Read his new memoir, it reeks of the usual right wing fallacies. Obama deserves The Hague, just as Bush before him, and Clinton before him, and bush 1 before him. Obama led Syria, Lybia to ruin, and increased troop deployment in Iraq. He bombed Doctors Without Borders, and committed enough war crimes to earn him a hearing in a war crimes court.

Trump attempted a coup in Venezuela, massively increased support to saudis in Yemen, and led a relentless drone warfare campaign over Syria and Afghanistan. 

Every US administration since Truman has started unnecessary conflicts or supported genocidal tyrants worldwide.

Is this going to provoke another wall of text?

Why did you vote for Biden then if he's Hague-worthy too and will turn out to be a right-winger?

Rainbow coated imperialism beats what is clearly a dangerous ultra-right movement. I expect this Biden admin to be worse than Obama, I just can’t have libs on twitter blaming me for their electoral misery.

[GeneralKilCavalry]

Going off of questionable intelligence, proceeding based on dubious reports. It's all the same. It doesn't matter if the evidence was fabricated or not, it was dubious in the first place, and they acted on it. And the result is:

2.4 Trillion taxpayer dollars.

Now, some things I doubt you care very much about:
3.5 million displaced.
4.5 million orphans
Around 300,000 dead Iraqis from violence. Excess deaths is always a sketchy figure, but around 600k-1million
Uncountable War Crimes perpetrated by the troops we so love to salute, don't we folks!

The rise of ISIS, destabilization of the Middle East, global economic crisis.

Iraq begged and pleaded to avoid war. 
https://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/06/world...gewanted=3

The CIA published a list of which companies desired which Iraqi oil fields:
https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/...954315.pdf

And look, the same exact thing happened in Vietnam.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident

The original American report blamed North Vietnam for both incidents, but the Pentagon Papers, the memoirs of Robert McNamara, and NSA publications from 2005, proved that the US government lied to justify a war against Vietnam.

Again, are you naive enough to think the US government would not pull the same trick twice? (Spoiler, it does this far too often)

[GeneralKilCavalry]

Obama led Syria, Lybia to ruin, and increased troop deployment in Iraq.

Isn't the general critique of him that he didn't bomb Syria enough? And in Lybia, as far as I remember he just followed UK/France in leading it to ruin, if that is your interpretation. (While I was very much against the western bombing there as by general rule, I don't really like the idea of always just saying the Americans broke it. After all, who actually did that were locals in the first place, obviously a consequence of a society broken by decade long brutal dictature. Of course whe western intervention made it worse as per usual. Relatedly, I have family ties to Chile; when I mention that with (older) people here in Germany it doesn't take 2 seconds for them to start with the coup by the US, as if it had been a foreign invasion. But I've got to know the Chilean fascists who support it to this day).

No absolve for Obama on the drone wars though. But on your take of him as a right winger, how would you assess him domestically? I think the biggest issue is the botched Obamacare? Was that due to his own preference, or was the 2008/2010 senate just pretty right wing even on the democrat side?


Btw Darell I have never heard of anybody who would not attribute the Iraq war to anything but imperialistic aspirations and plainly oil, spare a few politicians and interested news outlets. If it's a conspiracy theory it's pretty universal (also well-documented).

In Lybia, their actions led to the continuation to this day of the civil war (after killing Gadaffi, that is). This is most likely due to sheer incompetence. The richest country in Africa has returned to it's old, pre-industrial economic state - the saharan slave trade.

Domestically, Obama failed to do anything to stop the hemmorage of unions, failed to reinstate Glass-Stegal, failed to do trust-busting. He believes in the magic of markets, (see obamacare).

The banks that cheated millions got off scot-free, and Obama toed the line of capital.

I really should stop posting in this thread though, waste of my time at this point trying to convince people that their rosy "liberal democracy full of rights" is an empire.