[SPOILERS] Woden and ljubljana like boats

[ljubljana]

We won't get the marble until t38 unless we buy it now, which heightens the need for an early monument...and also might make buying the marble worth consideration actually. 50 gold and 18 food (from not working the sheep instead) for 18 culture may not be a bad trade this early.

For an added bonus, with turtles, marble, and mercury, your 2nd city should be at +2 happiness and get the extra 10% yields.

Well, if I actually improve the marble, that is . I'm hoping to not have to research Mining until post-Cothons, but if it or Masonry/The Wheel is on the Cothon path then obviously I'll have to. I'm not really sure buying the marble is actually the right idea, since all else being equal I'd rather spend the gold on a permanent yield boost (trader/monument) and we're getting close to being able to afford that, but it's worth thinking about at least. Actually, hmm, there is one other reason to hold off on buying the marble - the capital's speed to grow to size 4 is actually likely to be the limiting factor for the Early Empire inspiration, which is important not for its own sake but because that's my quest for the free envoy at Mitla. I could also use the Mysticism envoy for this, of course, but I'm assuming we'll start running into other city states with more difficult quests soon for which that will be better suited.

Also, looks like CMF got a settler out this turn, the first worldwide. I'm glad to see that the expansion hole I dug for myself with builder first seems to not be quite as deep as I feared it would be.

[Woden]

True about being able to improve it. A monument at the capital might also speed up the city grabbing it. So, probably better to buy the monument, so you have the culture along with the tile. Even better might be a trader for mercury city.

I think you researching Foreign Trade after Mysticism and I research State Workforce or Early Empire will probably be a good plan. The good thing about Foreign Trade is when we discover another continent, we both get the boost because of shared vision. I am going to build a ship after the settler and I can't imaging it taking long to find another continent, so you should have the boost in time. Maybe I go for Early Empire first, since I can get my growth moving pretty quickly with the bananas and rice and can drop the pearls as soon as I have my pantheon, then when I finish it you will get the boost and envoy.

[ljubljana]

Yeah, of those options, I'm not sure the timing works out to justify going for EE next if it's just to get me the boost - I think my capital will hit size 4 and my second city will hit size 2 around when the research would finish, if not sooner. The second city will found on t29 and grow on t37 at the current rate, while the capital should regrow to size 3 on t26 and then grow again in 9 at +4 food surplus, which is probably quicker than even a boosted EE research unless you find a culture CS or something.

I think SW quickly for both of us is probably a solid plan, since we need to jump-start culture/beakers and it's the only civic that lets us double-promote Pingala on one civic research. But, yeah, probably one of us will have to hard-research it to boost it for the other, since I doubt we're going to get any districts up any time soon. Do you know if trade route yields will update if, say, I get FT next, set up a TR, then finish the GP in the destination city while the TR is active? I'd hate to end up locking myself into a 1f/1h TR for 20 turns by getting the trader before the GP if that's not true... But, yeah, as far as yields go, unlocking the trader first gives 2 yields, while unlocking Pingala will give probably 5ish culture/beakers (more likely culture) at that point, which seems like the better call to do first, especially since it directly speeds subsequent civic researches. Whichever one of us is planning to have it boosted can also dump the extra culture into FT or elsewhere while they wait for the other to finish.

Also, after SW, there might be an argument for even doing EE before FT - the former will be worth probably 5 beakers/clefs per turn, while the latter gives one TR for four yield with the GP up, which seems not quite as good. Both will likely be boosted for both of us by the time we'd be choosing between them, so the cost to research wouldn't be different. It's a closer call for me though, since the GP gives a bonus Phoenicia TR to take it to 8 yield, but I'm still not sure that will beat 5 beakers now when I'll likely be deep into the Cothon push. Maybe it will just because the TRs will go at the second city, which badly needs food and which will make up for some of the research by growing onto the third mercury. Like so much else, it probably depends on where on the tech tree Celestial Navigation shows up and how tight the timings end up looking.

As far as cashflow goes, I'll probably only have enough to buy one of the trader/monument, and will have to hard-build the other. My instinct is to build the monument and buy the trader, since that way we can hopefully get the trader up as soon as it unlocks without having to wait for the build, and also because the trader's cheaper and I do have one other cashflow demand to deal with, namely the mandatory horses tile purchase at mercury city and the likely need to buy at least one other tile too for the eventual GP spot.

[ljubljana]

Turn 21 - Phoenicia



The moment of truth. Here's Craftsmanship:



And here's CelNav:



After writing, okay, that's about an average outcome, I think. It does make an early campus vaguely viable as a way to boost SW and get some extra era score, though there's not really anywhere obvious to put it without breaking the specialization of our cities. But, well, if really need the era score or to boost SW, dropping a +3 campus at mercury city really wouldn't be the end of the world. The capital could be fine for this too - I know 2 food/5 hammer trade routes are absurdly strong, but 3 food/4 hammers might not actually be that much weaker on this incredibly food-constrained map.

But, yeah, I'm on pace to get Cothons in 46 with a dedicated beeline. That's way too slow, but it'll come down quickly with mercury city and the free Mitla envoy. Given this placement of the Cothon tech, I definitely agree now that mercury city is mandatory as city 2 - good call on that. I think I should be in position to barely manage to get the first Cothons up in the ancient age, for 4 ES in addition to the 6 we'll get from the Bireme and the 1 each from the Pantheon and the Classical era tech discovery. I'll need to find 10 more somewhere for the Classical GA, though, which could be a tall ask unless I get lucky with barb camp spawns and naval scouting.

I wonder if I shouldn't be considering doing the monument next at the capital, before the second city's builder? If we wait until after the builder, it won't really come quickly enough to speed acquisition of the marble tile, but it will if we do monument first, while also boosting us towards SW and improving the odds of the capital grabbing a tile on the way to the GP spot after the marble. Moreover, 2 cpt to double our culture output just seems like a better return at this stage of the game than 3 hammers from the builder. The second city could then just self-build the builder, albeit slowly, while the capital follows the monument with a boat. This would also likely yield a slightly quicker first boat than building it in the second city, all the better with which to meet yours on the other side of the world for the circumnavigation ES.

Also, suboptimal has a settler out too now, the second to do so.

[Woden]

Turn 21-Vikings
Slinger moves next to the barb camp and I hit it again with the warrior...
   

TheArchduke is first to found a 2nd city! I am about 9 turns out. Must have a nice productive city.

[ljubljana]

Turn 22 - Phoenicia



Warrior stumbles upon something interesting...bananas on a hill. Not sure if that changes the calculus for the second city (probably not IMO), but it might be a nice third spot for one of us.

TheArchduke is first to found a 2nd city! I am about 9 turns out. Must have a nice productive city.

Wow, that's pretty fast - even if I had skipped the builder and you had worked max production for the past 20 turns, I doubt we could have matched that. I guess my score tracking missed their settler coming out, maybe because they regrew on the same turn? Or maybe I just made a bookkeeping error.

It looks like not too many people went builder-first, interesting. I'd have expected more of that if most of the other capitals resemble mine...

[Woden]

TheArchduke is first to found a 2nd city! I am about 9 turns out. Must have a nice productive city.

Wow, that's pretty fast - even if I had skipped the builder and you had worked max production for the past 20 turns, I doubt we could have matched that. I guess my score tracking missed their settler coming out, maybe because they regrew on the same turn? Or maybe I just made a bookkeeping error.

Best bet here is that he started something and worked a high food tile until he reached size 2, then switched to a settler.

[ljubljana]

Turn 23 - Phoenicia



Not much to report, aside from more scouting. Kaiser's up to two cities now, too! Looks like a fast start from their team.

[Woden]

Turn 23-Vikings
Start turn off with taking the barb camp...
   

Earning 2 era points and 50linger starts heading south to defog south of my capital. The warrior will promote and follow the coast looking for city states just off the coast. Settler finishes next turn and I will start a boat. 

Internationally, suboptimal and maybe one other settled their second city. We must have a low production start compared to others, or at least I have a low production start with one one 2 tile.

[ljubljana]

Turn 24 - Phoenicia



My settler comes in next turn as well, and I'm still planning on starting a monument next to speed us to the marble and start pushing for SW and the Pingala culture/science boost, unless you have objections. Pottery also comes in, and I start on Astrology, which is the way to Cothons. It's pretty painful to have to research this unboosted, but maybe you'll turn up a NW in the nearby seas or the rest of the continent to the west of the barb camp, and, if not, at least my hard-researching will boost the tech for you. I don't think there's much sense in waiting for a boost, unfortunately, since I need Cothons ASAP to unlock this start.

Oh, and...more barbs, pretty nearby and in a tricky location, since if the scout beelines for Cuneiform I can't stop it from activating. I'm debating sending the settler out unescorted while both warriors try to lock down the new camp, since we know there can't be any more barbs in this area and a third camp would have to spawn soon and with a very unfortunate placement to punish this. It'd be out in the open for just two turns, so it seems pretty safe to me, but what do you think?