[SPOILERS] Chevalier Mal Fet and Marcopolothefraud lead a Soviet Down Under

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

I did a quick test, and I honestly think converting Australia to Work Ethic is the way to go. You've already got Holy SItes unlocked, so in a few of your high-growth-but-low-production areas a Work Ethic Holy Site could be worth 5 or 7 production.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Hm, no save waiting for me. It's with Marco still.

Anyway, looking over our lands, I'm reasonably satisfied with Russia. My tundra cities will be slow to grow and begin, but once their lavras are up they will instantly punch far above their weight. I can quickly get basic infrastructure, lay down a campus or other suitable district, and they'll strong contributors. That will let my coastal cities focus on expansion and shipbuilding, and in the meantime I can wait to grab Monumentality in the classical or even medieval age, banking faith, and then explode out of an island (new settler every time I hit size 2!). The Plaza + Ancestral Hall can go where I pinned it at Imperator Aleksandr, which as an inland city will be unable to contribute ships to the cause. Go Lavra -> Builder (fish/fish/silver) -> (Granary/Monument if necessary) -> Plaza -> Ancestral Hall there. I can work out the micro later, and also will assume we can inspire Political Philosophy and reach it in a reasonable time. Double promote Magnus with the Plaza/Hall promotions and then pump settlers from there, until the whole tundra is settled.

I'm less satisfied with Australia. Looking over Marco's lands, he has a severe lack of food and production. For example, note how slowly The Blueprint is growing. He'll have fantastic science once his campuses are built, but it's going to be slow going to get there. Oslyabya is similarly limited. To the north, he has decent food but no production, same to the east on the edge of the desert. I don't know how to solve the food problems, but again, I think, Marco, you have a few cities where you'll have a slot for a holy site available. Figure the coastal cities get Campuses + Harbors. Your third in those places can still be a holy site, and it might even be viable for the Blueprint to go Holy Site after its campus. Australia's absurd adjacencies apply to Holy Sites, too, meaning the production problem can be solved with Russia's religion. You can settle high-food zones, slowbuild (or chop) the holy site, and instantly have a bundle of +5/6/7/10/12/14 production per turn in the city. Gold will come from harbors and Tithe in this case, not from commercial hubs.

I dunno, I'm just growing increasingly concerned with Australia's slow start here. It can be a science monster IF we can get some good expansion in first. Cornflakes, if you're reading along, I'd also welcome your thoughts on the matter.

[marcopolothefraud]

Sorry about the late turn! I missed my window because I had a busy Saturday night. At least everyone else played their turns quickly, so we didn't get delayed even further.

Turn 40

screenshots to be added

The barbarian slinger has disappeared out of line of sight, so I decide not to chase it and heal both of my warriors this turn. There's a small hurricane off the coast of Russia, and Writing finishes in 1 turn.


After Writing, I want to go Animal Husbandry -> Sailing -> Archery. I want Animal Husbandry so I can slap a Pasture on the Horses tile near Illmatic, Sailing so I can (hopefully) help CMF's invasion of Hong Kong as well as put a few of my own units in the water, and Archery so I can fight off any pestering ships and increasingly-strong Barbarians. At least three Archers would be nice, to fulfill the Eureka.

Looking over Marco's lands, he has a severe lack of food and production. For example, note how slowly The Blueprint is growing. He'll have fantastic science once his campuses are built, but it's going to be slow going to get there. Oslyabya is similarly limited. To the north, he has decent food but no production, same to the east on the edge of the desert. I don't know how to solve the food problems, but again, I think, Marco, you have a few cities where you'll have a slot for a holy site available. Figure the coastal cities get Campuses + Harbors. Your third in those places can still be a holy site, and it might even be viable for the Blueprint to go Holy Site after its campus. Australia's absurd adjacencies apply to Holy Sites, too, meaning the production problem can be solved with Russia's religion. You can settle high-food zones, slowbuild (or chop) the holy site, and instantly have a bundle of +5/6/7/10/12/14 production per turn in the city. Gold will come from harbors and Tithe in this case, not from commercial hubs.

I dunno, I'm just growing increasingly concerned with Australia's slow start here. It can be a science monster IF we can get some good expansion in first. Cornflakes, if you're reading along, I'd also welcome your thoughts on the matter.

Hmm, you've got a good point here. Let's analyze both of my cities so far.

Illmatic: I like the two Horse tiles that can turn into 5-yield tiles, the Cattle tile that can turn into 3/1, and how it has 2/2 tiles that don't even have to be improved. I also like how it already has 9 housing without tile improvements or buildings. I like how I have a +5 Campus and +3 Harbor available, and with the Government Plaza I can turn it into a +6 Campus and a +5 Harbor. Finally, I like how there's a lot of Stone to chop.

I don't like how I had to cover up one of the Horse tiles, how there's no gold-producing luxuries except the weak Pearls tile, and how there's no Appeal in the northeast. Eventually when Illmatic gets to size 10, it's not going to have a good spot to put a Holy Site in.

The Blueprint: I like the confluence of Mountains and Woods, and the fact that two locations exist with Breathtaking Appeal. I like the 2/2 tile that it has.

I'm on the fence about its insulated location. It can't produce any ships, but it can't be attacked by any ships either.

I don't like the lack of any 3 food tiles, even after I reveal resources like Horses and Iron. I don't like how hard it would be to preserve that Breathtaking tile in its southeast. I planned a +6 adjacency Campus and a +5 adjacency Holy Site; a Commercial Hub would be a little weak because it would only be +3 adjacency.
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We faced a truly hard dilemma by researching Astrology without the Eureka. I started researching it on turn 12, and only finished turn 29. If I had that 40% discount, I would've gained 6 or 7 turns, and that would have been 6-7 turns of early Science from my +5 Campus and +6 Campus - a gain of around 70 science!

Looking at the spreadsheet, most people have finished 4 techs. Ljubljana's Phoenicia and CMF's Russia have finished 5 techs, and Roland's China has finished 6. I can chalk both of their progress to high population growth or science-yielding tiles (turtles, tea, or mercury). I didn't have either of those, and I'm only about to hit my 3rd technology.

So the question is - what if CMF researched Astrology and gave me the Eureka? He definitely would've lost the first religion to Roland, but that doesn't seem to matter too much. However, in the spreadsheet, it seems like Kaiser has a district; most likely a Holy Site since the other districts require more technologies to unlock. If CMF was delayed without the Astrology eureka, could he have lost the second religion to Kaiser's Japan? That would've been a nightmare.

[marcopolothefraud]

Turn 41

I've tried to attach screenshots for 10 minutes now, with no luck. I suspect that my wifi's an issue.

Writing finished this turn, and I start researching Animal Husbandry (due t46). I'm also 1 turn away from the Early Empire inspiration, so I switched civics away to State Workforce.

My two warriors are still healing. One has 51 HP, and the other has 28 HP. The problem with "exploring" is that there's a river to the north, and hills to the east. That means that no matter where I go, I'm almost guaranteed to give the slinger first strike. That means I should heal as much as possible before killing it in a 1v1 duel.

In terms of production, Illmatic is finishing a settler (due t42), then will start a Campus (due t49). The Blueprint finished a Monument this turn, and will start a Campus too (due t55, when production growth is factored in).

In international news, Ljubljana's Phoenicia earned 6 era score. This makes me suspect that they finished a Bireme this turn. Then again, maybe not...it's a little late to be producing your first ship, no? I'd imagine that, playing optimally, Ljubljana would finish a Bireme about the same time that CMF finished a Lavra. Whatever, it doesn't matter too much. Suboptimal's Indonesia lost one empire score, meaning that he has a settler out.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Turn 40




Here's my turn 40. Oryol is looking like quite a strong production location, but limited on food - it'll be a while until I get my second district, and ages before I get a third. But the lavra will be monstrous, and this is a strong candidate for a builder/unit pump similar to Imperator Aleksandr as a settler pump. I think city #4 goes here. (Then Sebastopol, then Petropavlosk, and finally Navrin, Sissoi Veliki, and New Oslyabya as rapidly as possible). 

I finished my Russia tundra-Work Ethic test game, and while it works very well, I found myself overrun with GWAM by the end, and building theater squares is normally a waste of production. But I should exploit the cultural potential there, so I'm wondering if a Cathedral isn't a better option than the Meeting House for my Worship belief. ...Actually, no, its great work slot has to be specifically RELIGIOUS art. So I couldn't use it anyway. Well, at least I'll get some immortal scouts, and lots of culture available if I can ever get the museums down. 

]After Writing, I want to go Animal Husbandry -> Sailing -> Archery. I want Animal Husbandry so I can slap a Pasture on the Horses tile near Illmatic, Sailing so I can (hopefully) help CMF's invasion of Hong Kong as well as put a few of my own units in the water, and Archery so I can fight off any pestering ships and increasingly-strong Barbarians. At least three Archers would be nice, to fulfill the Eureka.

This looks good. Once your campus is down I'll remove my horse pins from the map. However, I'd send your first ship north and east, since my galleys will be covering the west. Test games showed that 4 galleys will overwhelm any city-state that doesn't have a garrisoned galley, and if you don't mass troops near the border, the CS will often wander off and explore with its galley. That's achievable by turn 70 or so, I think. Galleys will be very quick builds for me, with Work Ethic. Borodino, for example, will jump from 12 h/t to 18 h/t with Work Ethic, which is a galley about every 4 turns. An Australian galley, given travel time, would need twice that just to reach Borodino. So, I'd explore the other direction so we get maximum coverage, and perhaps even assemble an Australian squadron of your own. I think Australia in particular will need to expand overseas, and north into the jungle belt is the best way to do it. A CS in that direction would be an excellent stepping stone! 

]We faced a truly hard dilemma by researching Astrology without the Eureka. I started researching it on turn 12, and only finished turn 29. If I had that 40% discount, I would've gained 6 or 7 turns, and that would have been 6-7 turns of early Science from my +5 Campus and +6 Campus - a gain of around 70 science!

Looking at the spreadsheet, most people have finished 4 techs. Ljubljana's Phoenicia and CMF's Russia have finished 5 techs, and Roland's China has finished 6. I can chalk both of their progress to high population growth or science-yielding tiles (turtles, tea, or mercury). I didn't have either of those, and I'm only about to hit my 3rd technology.

So the question is - what if CMF researched Astrology and gave me the Eureka? He definitely would've lost the first religion to Roland, but that doesn't seem to matter too much. However, in the spreadsheet, it seems like Kaiser has a district; most likely a Holy Site since the other districts require more technologies to unlock. If CMF was delayed without the Astrology eureka, could he have lost the second religion to Kaiser's Japan? That would've been a nightmare.

We got a bit unlucky compared to China, but ultimately I think this was unavoidable. We ran the numbers earlier and finishing Astrology->Writing 7 turns earlier will be a net profit for you in science, and we've still not found a natural wonder in the...20? turns since that discussion, due to the need for barb suppression. So ultimately we came out ahead, even if you found a natural wonder on the very next tile defogged. Note that regardless of who researched Astrology, we would finish the tech at the same time - just one partner is eating the eureka cost and the other is 'drafting' off his partner. In this case, we had Australia eat it, which I think is the right choice - you'll have monstrously strong science once the campuses get established and you'll quickly make it up, while Russia will need more time. I needed the early builder techs anyway since I already have a builder out, so I put the extra time to good use. 

Kaiser's Japan, btw, finished a holy site AND planted his third city on turn 40. You can see him earning Great Prophet points on the GP screen. Archduke's settler is taking a looooong walk to his third city site, it's been out for ages now. 10 turns, in fact! It must be an excellent site, which would also explain why he was so aggressive about switching back and forth between his monument and his settler to get it out. That means he's not going to have a builder out yet, which would normally make the State Workforce/Craftsmanship inspirations very difficult to achieve, but due to the team setup and the scrambled tree he doesn't need to worry about that. Still, he'll only beat me to city #3 by about 10 turns even if he founds right now, and in exchange I've got 2 lavras and the attendant faith and production. 

Overall, Roland has been consistently leading in tech, so he likely has turtles or mercury at Xi'an. Australia is doing a deep dive and so you'll likely be first to Writing - it doesn't look like anyone else is focusing on that so heavily. I will be right behind mostly by dint of the Astrology eureka saving me 7 turns and my trio of sea turtles giving lots of early-game science. Overall, there's no especial cause for alarm at Australia yet, I'm just worried about its long-term growth curve since food and production are so lacking in his start area.

[marcopolothefraud]

Hooray! Screenshots are finally working!

Here's a small overview of Illmatic and the Blueprint. Illmatic's Campus has +5 adjacency so far, but that will become +6 with the Government Plaza and +7 with the Holy Site. Notice how I'm making +5 gold per turn - shouldn't it be +3 now? I now have 2 Monuments, both of which cost 1 gold per turn, but I'm not working any tile (or implementing any Government Policy) with 2 extra gold.





That Hurricane is coming close to Russia, and it's a Category-4 "biggest hurricane of the game" type Hurricane. It's supposed to move southeast.



Finally, I was wondering if Reyna's a Governor worth taking or not. Obviously Pingala and Magnus are better, and there's a clear argument that Liang and Amani are better too. Hmm...this may be worth discussing into the midgame.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Turn 41




Yarp, that hurricane be bearin' down on Borodino. I figure it won't likely damage my monument, and if it pillages my quarry or fishing boats at least it will probably add a yield, too? So there won't be too great loss - perhaps even a net boon. 

Kaiser finished what I believe to be another Holy Site - that or he had all 3 of his cities grow on the same turn, which would be an impressive coincidence. We'll see next turn which it was. Two Japanese holy sites will bear watching - I have 15 more points than him and gain them twice as fast, but he might attempt to snipe with some projects. If I think that's likely, I'll need to grab my dude with faith beforehand. Thankfully we're already getting 10 faith per turn from the two lavras, and that's without any development whatsoever! 

For governors, I think Pingalax3 is definitely better. Liang is good IF you have a city that can produce builders for a while, then she's great value. Magnus needs either heavy chopping or a settler pump, and Amani needs a city-state worth fighting over. For now, we don't have to worry about Reyna until our 4th title at the absolute earliest. I'm not sure that her promotion is worth it - generally the yields you get from the improved tile will be better than +2 gold. Do pastures and lumber mills lower appeal? If not, then I'd think you'd net out more from just building them and forgoing the 1 extra adjacency. She can only be in one city regardless...so we're talking like a maximum of +1 science/handful of gold. 

I have no idea why your monument isn't costing money. I feel like mine isn't, either? I am only working the turtle tile, but still am making 6 gold instead of the expected 5. 

[marcopolothefraud]

Turn 42



One tile damaged and one tile gained fertility? Uhh...where's the fertile tile and where's the damaged tile? I checked both Knyaz Suvorov and Borodino, and couldn't find the affected tiles. Bad enough that the interface won't show me.



On the eastern front, my warriors are just about ready to spring into action. I expect the slinger to have stayed in the same spot, or at least one tile nearby. The plan is to move the southern warrior first, find out where the slinger is, and end my turn with both of my warriors next to the slinger. That way, the slinger will still have first strike, but it'll be a 2v1 and I can kill it in two attacks.



In the west, I'm sending a settler over to the Osyblaya area. This city will be called "The College Dropout", after the 2004 studio album by Kanye West. I chose this location for a couple of reasons:

a. It's coastal, and it has fresh water. That means it has 9 housing, right off the bat.
b. It only borders one ocean tile. That means only 4 Frigates can shoot at it, and there's only one space for a Viking Longship/Bireme to attack me from.
c. It immediately has access to a 3/1 horse tile, and it can buy a 2/2 tile very quickly.

Now, here's my main concerns:

a. A +4 campus is great, but it's still my weakest campus. Is there a way to arrange a district-triangle to make a +5 adjacency campus, while still keeping Breathtaking Appeal?
b. The only good Holy Site locations are 3 tiles away from the city center. That means I'll have to spend >100 gold for them. It's something to consider, especially when I'm likely going to put down Holy Sites before Harbors.

Do pastures and lumber mills lower appeal? If not, then I'd think you'd net out more from just building them and forgoing the 1 extra adjacency. She can only be in one city regardless...so we're talking like a maximum of +1 science/handful of gold. 

Nope, pastures and lumber mills don't affect appeal at all. Only mines and quarries negatively affect appeal, which means I'll have to be careful where I place them. Perhaps Reyna isn't too useful at all. Oh well.

[marcopolothefraud]

Update: If I clear that marsh northeast of College Dropout, the eastern rice tile would have Breathtaking appeal. That would be a +4 adjacency Holy Site. Huzzah, problem solved!

Now, Holy Sites provide +1 Appeal to surrounding tiles. That means some tiles next to it, which also border Mountains, would be pushed to Breathtaking. I can create a District triangle that would all be on Breathtaking tiles...and they would all be on flat land, so I wouldn't be missing out on too much Production.

With that in mind, College Dropout will be the best possible city given the current circumstances, arguably better than the Blueprint. We have:
- a +4 adjacency Campus
- a +4 adjacency Holy Site

*With a properly executed district triangle, they turn into a +5 Campus/+5 Holy Site.

- a 3/1 Horse tile, a 2/2 tile, and extra food from harvesting Marshes and Rice (though I need to see if extra food is worth the production of a Builder charge...)
- 9 housing, easily 10 or 11 housing with the right tile improvements

I'm contemplating spending 240 gold to immediately get a Monument. Is this a good idea, or should I save my gold just in case an enemy ship decides to raze College Dropout?

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

The campus/holy site triangle looks great, especially since it'll net out to 10 science/production/faith once you can run Natural Philosophy and Simultaneum (Simultaneum, once the holy sites are up, blows Urban Planning's paltry +1 production out of the water, and Urban Planning is quite nice!). I agree and think it's the best possible location.

The monument buy is a good question...normally I'd say yes, but a single longship can raze an undefended city right now. Keeping some gold as an emergency fund for a warrior buy in case Woden happens by might be advisable. Or we could gamble that Woden won't stumble on the city before you have a garrison in place/won't be inclined to attack right away, in order to speed up the snowball.

Right now I'm leaning towards taking the gamble, since we have two civ's worth of income here (my warriors, having scouted the tundra, are being recalled to garrison my coastal cities, so I don't need to buy a warrior). I generate 6 per turn, you 5...so we'd need about 20 turns-ish to save up enough. Dangerous but not reckless, I think.